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Ticket Options
Question Profile
DATEJul 23, 2007
TICKET#334473
STATUSClosed
SUBJECT2005 Power Mac G5 start up no and yes
CATComputers, Operating Systems, Applications or Connected Devices
TYPEComputer Hardware (RAM, Drives, Video Cards, Motherbaord, CPU, etc)
DESCCPU
DESC
PLATFORMApple Macintosh (PowerPC G3,G4,G5)
MODELPower Mac G5
PROC2 G
RAM1 G
DRIVE180 G
NAMELarry
USERNAMEGigamux
TECHNICALLots of Experience
ISSUELots of Troubleshooting
Question Details
TICKET ARCHIVE -> 2005 Power Mac G5 start up no and yes
Gigamux - Jul 23, 2007 - 9:45 am
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I push the pow button (The pwr button on the front panel) to boot up and no tone and red led comes on.

I disconnected all usb and Firewire. Disconnecte AC pwr for more than two minutes. Plug AC pwr back in and push pwr button again, this time both cooling fans come on high after some time but no start up tone.

I disconnect AC pwr cable again, wait and plug it back in. Reboot and it works.

I then find my Disc with the Hardware test and try to reboot with it to do the test, but not having any luck. Reboot by pressing the pwr button and holding the Option key down. But no start up tone and red led comes on every time.

I disonnect the AC again for more than two minutes, reboot wity Option key down and this time no red led and no startup tone, but both fans cut on high. I hold the pwr button down and system shuts off.

I boot up again and no tone and red led comes on. So I disconnect the AC pwr again (pull the AC from the back panel, not from the wall socket always) Wait more than two minutes and reboot.

This time no tone, no red led and after about a minute, both fans cut on high again. I pull the AC pwr off the back panel and wait more than two minutes. Reboot again but no tone and red led comes on again.

I have a complete back up of my system on an external hard drive if I need it.

Any ideas or suggestions? I am using my laptop to send this message.

Thanks in advance for any help.
Gigamux - Jul 23, 2007 - 10:16 am
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It is LED #7 that I am referring to for this problem.

I finally got it to boot up.

I went to Disk Utility to check my disk, but D U will not show any disk information. Just stays at the Window that says " Gathering disk information".

I can use the G5 but am getting scared something is going to really mess up.
Stuartpau - Jul 23, 2007 - 1:07 pm
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You may have a hardware problem developing but there some things that may help you. Please read the entire message before proceeding.

On the motherboard, there is a little push button that goes by many names (SMU, MMU, PMU Etc). The bottom line is that over the years this memory or Power Management system gets corrupted and can cause all sorts of seemingly major problem.

If you go to Apples support site, you should be able to find an article that shows exactly where or how your particular G5's SMU is located. On some systems, the following process can be done using the Power Button.

To reset it, disconnect everything from your Power Mac including and ESPECIALLY the Power Cord. The power cord must be out for this to work.
Open the side of the computer and remove the panels. Also remove the Fan assembly.

Now if you look at the bottom left side of the mother board, you should see a small square item, with a small round button in the middle.

Press this in, I use a pencil and use the end with the eraser on it to push this button. Do not hold it in, a quick press is all that is needed.

Reassemble the machine and let me know what happens.

You might want to rest your PRAM before you do this, that way everything is covered.

To do this, restart your Mac, and while it is rebooting, hold down the Apple Key, the Option Key and the P and R keys, quite twist so make sure that you have the position you need to do this set up before you restart.
You have to hold these keys down until you have heard your mac go through its chime or startup sound, at least 3 times. When that has happened, simply let go of the Keys.
This will set up the PRAM to factory defaults and you may have to reset some of the things like the time to where you need it, unless you use the network time facility. You may still get a message saying your clock is not set properly, but if it is set by the Net, don't worry about it. If it is not, you will have to set it manually from system preferences.

After doing this, and resetting the PMU, if this does not help, it may be that you HD needs some work, but let's leave that til later OK.

Stuart
Gigamux - Jul 23, 2007 - 1:39 pm
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I did the SMU reset and we still have the #7 LED come on after pushing the pwr button. No boot up.

It took about 12 to 15 times this morning before I could get it to boot up.

I was able to use the copy of Disk Utility from my back up HD and found repaired permissions and did a verify on the Boot Drive. It needs repair; so I set up the G5 to boot from the back up drive. But so far it only turns on the Red LED and no start up chime.

Gigamux - Jul 23, 2007 - 1:40 pm
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Gigamux - Jul 23, 2007 - 7:37 pm
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Ok, over the course of the day I have gotten it to boot up three times. No pattern, I push pwr button, red led and white pwr Led flash, then the Red comes back on after a few seconds.

I pull the AC off, wait, repeat and get same result, for two to four times, then I get no Red Led response, and then about a minute later, fans come on high. I pull the AC off and wait about hour and a half and it boots up, but no tone.

The last time I got it to boot up it was in Target disk mode, I was able to mount the G5 drive onto my laptop and ran the G5 disk Utility program to repair the G5 Drive.

I then tried to restart the G5, but got the same pattern as above.

I am going to wait for 1 1/2 hours and try again.

Seems like if it was a bad logic board it would never come up.

I swapped the Dimm's earlier today and it had no change.

For my next trick, I am hoping to boot up with the option key down and be able to boot from the G5 original DVD and run the hardware test.

Maybe it turns out to be memory.

More to come.

LG
Stuartpau - Jul 23, 2007 - 9:21 pm
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With your processor possibly hanging up, it certainly sounds like a hardware issue.

I assume that you have tried to start the system with everything except the monitor mouse and keyboard attached?>

It is definitely possible for a motherboard to have an intermittent fault on it, they can run sometimes for weeks without failure then simply die for an hour or so, then come back up with there being no pattern at all, and in fact these issues are the hardest of all to troubleshoot.

As Deltamac indicates this could easily be a memory issue and attempting to reseat the RAM is a good way to go. IF you have enough RAM installed you may be able to take various modules out until you do find a faulty one. As Deltamac states, having Applecare here would be very useful as Motherboards do not come cheap so eliminating the RAM as an issue is a must.

YOu could locate an Appleservice tech in your area and get him to see if the CPU's need re-seating as any component that is subject to heating and cooling can become unseated from its socket.

If your Mac is out of warranty there are several people that work on out of warranty macs besides Apple and they are usually less expensive, although Apple generally provides the best service.

IF your Mac is out of warranty and you feel bold, you could try removing every connector, one at a time and replacing it, as sometimes humidity can cause a situation that effectively isolates a pin in a socket from its mate in the plug. It is a capacitance effect and simply removing the connectors and replacing them, can often cure problems like these.

Running the hardware test is definitely the way to go in this situation, but you do need to know that an application that is running on a faulty system, may not return any error, simply because as the system is running there is no error.
The Memory test is particularly good as it may be able to locate a specific module that is bad.

If all this lot fail to bring you online I am afraid that you very likely have a failure somewhere, and it may not be the Motherboard. THe Power supply itself is a critical component and if it is not sending the correct voltages al the time you will get what appears to be a motherboard failure.
Unfortunately to locate these types of problems you need test equipment, at the very least a high Quality DVM, and in truth a whole bunch of other expensive gear.

I hope it turns out to be memory as it seems like the system tries to get going then simply hangs. Memory causes more problems at the hardware level than almost any other component.

Let us know what happens

Stuart
Gigamux - Jul 24, 2007 - 7:25 am
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Well I slept in till 8:00 am and after starting coffee, I plugged back in the AC pwr cord on the back of the G5, push the pwr button on the front panel, whilst holding the option key down and without a start up tone, got it to boot up to the choice screen. Opened the DVD tray with a trusting F12 key stroke and loaded the hardware test. It is running currently in extended mode.

More on this saga latter. Thanks for all the words. Well this teaches me one thing I never new about electronics. I always thought if they lasted past the first few months, the chips would last a long long time. Plus the binary nature of things seems to have a shade of gray to it, in leiu of black and white.

LG
Stuartpau - Jul 24, 2007 - 12:45 pm
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A question here, were you unable to get your system to boot on the DVD installer by holding the C key down?, that being the reason you chose the option key method.

You certainly seem to have a good motherboard sometimes, so I have to wonder just how good the memory chips are.
On the Hardware test you can let the memory test run quite for an infinite time, so if you really want to work out your RAM this could be a way to go.

What I ma seeing here though is a system that does boot and does seem to work once it is booted.

That being the case the hardware test may not find anything.

Once you are booted do you have access to your HD via any toolos at all?

On most Macs these days there isa SMART function on the drives and if the drive is going down the SMART function is there to warn you.

You should be able to get at this via the Disk utility.

I recall earlier that you could not access the HD in the Disk utility, is this still a true statement.

The reason I am asking is that there are a couple of situations where even an HD can cause a system to hang like yours appears to.

Consider this, if you fail to load certain components of the OS at the initial loading stage, a lot of things may appear to run OK, but there may be other applications that did not get properly loaded causing you this situation.

Don't forget most modern OS's are just a collection of little applications and drivers running around a kernel a UNIX one in this case and if the entire system fails to load, we should be able to see what is missing using some of the tools inside the Mac.

I can only assume that you don't have Applecare, or you would have already had this problem fixed at Apple's expense




Stuartpau - Jul 24, 2007 - 12:47 pm
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Gigamux - Jul 24, 2007 - 1:08 pm
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Finished the H W test. Took it one hour 26 min 43 sec. Everything passed. So I had two choices, shut down or restart. I picked restart.

#7 Red LED back on. Pulled AC cord off back. AC back on and reboot, #7 Red led again, repeated a total of three times and left it for about an hour.

Did not check time but pushed power button again and this time no boot tone, but no #7 LED either, went into Target Mode.

I am currently copying my files into a special back up so I can use them from my Laptop.

Answers to your quetions:

I am going to attempt to boot up from the DVD and reload the system. Since I got it to give me the choice by using the Option Key at boot when I got the HW test to run, it seems only plausable that I could get it to boot from the DVD.

I was able to access the G5 HD from my laptop and used the G5 utility to repair the G5 HD.

So the next step in to reload the system after I get my back up complete.

More as it comes available.
Gigamux - Jul 24, 2007 - 9:11 pm
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Finished the H W test. Took it one hour 26 min 43 sec. Everything passed. So I had two choices, shut down or restart. I picked restart.

#7 Red LED back on. Pulled AC cord off back. AC back on and reboot, #7 Red led again, repeated a total of three times and left it for about an hour.

Did not check time but pushed power button again and this time no boot tone, but no #7 LED either, went into Target Mode.

I am currently copying my files into a special back up so I can use them from my Laptop.

Answers to your quetions:

I am going to attempt to boot up from the DVD and reload the system. Since I got it to give me the choice by using the Option Key at boot when I got the HW test to run, it seems only plausable that I could get it to boot from the DVD.

I was able to access the G5 HD from my laptop and used the G5 utility to repair the G5 HD.

So the next step in to reload the system after I get my back up complete.

More as it comes available.
Gigamux - Jul 25, 2007 - 11:33 am
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Well, the pattern remains.

I reloaded the OS from the DVD and as long as the G5 is at room temp, it will start up and run.

This is the pattern:

Room Temp: Correct Boot up
After warm: No Boot up, only Red LED #7
If try and not down to room temp: Eiter Red LED #7 or system stalls for about a minute and cuts fans on high speed.

Got to be a temp probe or sensor that is causing this problem.

HELP!
Stuartpau - Jul 25, 2007 - 12:23 pm
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HI from the sounds of things, the problem is a bad connection somewhere on the board.

The reason I say this, is that as the board gets hot and things expand, you get a failure.

It could be any of the components themselves for that matter, yet you do say that once the system boots it stays booted Correct".

I have to admire your patience in trying to troubleshoot this issues, but unless you have some really good test gear, I really don't think that you are going to be able to find the problem.

As I said earlier, even the hardware test has found nothing and that was probably because there was nothing wrong at that point.

I would still tend to want to check the memory out but if it is the motherboard, then wasting money on new RAM is not such a good idea.

Have you enough RAM to where you can pull one module out, and run on what is left. See what happens, and if you still have the problem, switch to the other module, and see if you get the same response.

It is very difficult trying to troubleshoot a system with an intermittent fault, but if you are certain that once the system is warm it is going to fail, you do have some predictability.

There is the possibility that you have a fault Temp sensor that is shutting you out when the temp is warm (The sensor thinking it is hot).

If your G5 falls into a specific category then Apple may fix it for you even out of warranty so I would follow this URL and see if it applies to you.

http://www.apple.com/uk/support/powe...pairextension/

IF you do not qualify for this service, then these people are really good and their prices are very good. Plus they may be able to help you without you having to go for the cost of the motherboard.

http://www.dttservice.com/appledesktops/powermacg5.html.

I would really like to be able to pull something out of my hat so to speak, but without having your Mac here, I really can't go any further on the troubleshooting for you.

I really would like to know what you end up doing and also if you manage to find a fix for your Mac that I missed.

If you wish to contact me directly you can do this at stuarta@macosx.com.

Let me know if you want me to reOpen this ticket, there is a chance that someone else may be able to help, so if you would like me to do that let me know by responding to this message, not by sending me an email message.

I hope that you do manage to find the problem.
Stuart

P.S.
Have you taken out any of the cards in the slots and re-seated them. The video card runs very hot and can return error codes to the main board, that can definitely hang your system up, plus it is one of the factors that some people have experienced with Mac G5s, especially the ones with overheating issues.
Remember the Power supply can cause almost all the problems you have described so far, so it is another area really worth checking out, OK.
Gigamux - Jul 25, 2007 - 12:41 pm
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Thanks so much for the ideas and support.

I will drop you a message when I resolve the issue, one way or another.

LG
Gigamux - Jul 27, 2007 - 8:07 am
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My resolution is this: Just use the G5 and keep daily back ups.

Yes, I restarted it after it had reached room temperature and have been using it hard since then. Doing Final Cut Express video edititing and all seems well. I never has a problem with it once it booted up.

So, the next time I am planning a trip to the apple store, I will take it in and see if they will do the pow unit fix as I fall into the serial numbers that they list.

However, the problem discripion states, no led indicators; and my problem always includes the #7 LED, except when it decided to hang for about a minute and turn the fans on high.

You can close this ticket or I will after I submit this. Thanks again for all the ideas and most of all the link to the Apple G5 pow supply problem.

LG

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