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Question Profile
| DATE | Apr 13, 2007 |
| TICKET | #333960 |
| STATUS | Closed |
| SUBJECT | darwin kernel version 7.9.0 |
| CAT | Computers, Operating Systems, Applications or Connected Devices |
| TYPE | Operating System Features, Bugs and Problems |
| DESC | Apple |
| DESC | 10.3.X (Panther) |
| PLATFORM | Apple Macintosh (PowerPC G3,G4,G5) |
| MODEL | Mac osx 10.3.9 |
| PROC | 1.25 GHz |
| RAM | 512 MB |
| DRIVE | |
| NAME | Tammy |
| USERNAME | olidawg |
| TECHNICAL | Little Experience |
| ISSUE | Just Started Looking |
Question Details
TICKET ARCHIVE -> darwin kernel version 7.9.0
olidawg - Apr 13, 2007 - 10:42 pm
Ever since we replaced our hard drive 3 years ago, we have had this problem. We will be working in anything (on-line, photoshop, word, etc.) and suddenly the computer will freeze and all this coding comes up. We ignored it for a long time, but it has been doing it more frequently. I realize you probably need all the coding, but so far I only have: "unknown failure.......darwin kernel version 7.9.0...waiting for debugger" Any advice?
stottm - Apr 14, 2007 - 1:11 pm
Unfortunately, this is bad news...
It's a Kernel Panic here's an article explaining what it means:
http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2002/tn2063.html
The most likely culprit is a bad memory chip. The fact that's getting worse might indicate that more and more of the memory space is going bad. Solid state chips can break down due to heat, etc. There could be a microscopic short circuit that is causing the failure and it's getting worse as more and more transistors short out.
Memory stores data in binary; Zero's & One's billions of bits that flip between 1 & 0 billions of times a second. When memory goes bad it stops flipping some of those bits. i.e. they stay the same all the time; either Zero or One. The reason the problem is intermittent is because the operating system allocates sections of RAM and where things get allocated changes all the time. It depends entirely on what piece of data gets stored on the bad spot and what happens when the operating system writes one thing to RAM but reads an erroneous value back. i.e. it's not reading what it's expecting to read. If the unexpected value confuses the system it crashes with a kernel panic and the entire operating system halts. The debugging is available for advanced programmers to examine what happened but it's a very difficult process and it might not even tell the programmer enough information to determine the problem. Kernel faults are generally either bad hardware or a bad software driver that controls the hardware.
Did you upgrade your RAM three years ago? I am talking about memory chips not the hard disk. Where did you buy the RAM? Many Mac users have problems with cheap discount third party RAM. Mac's are very sensitive to bad RAM. PC's are too, that's why you hear about the infamous Blue Screen of Death (BSOD) in Windows. Well a kernel panic on a Mac is the exact same thing and most of the time it's a hardware problem that causes both the BSOD and a Mac OS X Kernel Panic. The most common problem is either defective / faulty RAM or very poor quality RAM.
Solid state chips like those that make up today's memory and CPU's are run through an assembly line. All chips of a particular model are the same. However during production some chips will be better then others in quality. More of the microscopic transistors are in a working state. The chips are all tested for speed and how much heat they dissipate. The ones that can run faster with less heat have a higher price because they are more rare. The slower chips that if you try to run them fast start to overheat, these are priced lower. Then you have the bottom of the barrel chips that barely perform reliably. Most of the time these chips are sold off for use in simple devices like digital clock radios, etc. Some entrepreneur buys these chips and sells them at a deep discount. They never should be put into PC's nor Mac's but they get sold that way anyway.
The high end Mac Pro systems such as the Quad and Dual Quad Mac Pro's are using ECC memory (Error Correcting Code). Most desktop computers take what's called "non-parity" memory and do not need error correction code (ECC), or "parity" modules. (However, in most cases ECC modules will work in desktops.) ECC modules look for errors in data and are most often found in servers and other mission-critical applications used by large networks and businesses. There are, however, a few desktop systems that do use ECC modules. You cannot mix ECC chips with non-ECC chips. Check to see if your system supports ECC and if it does, then try buying the ECC memory because it's super reliable.
If you added RAM to your system in the last three years, you may have put in a lower quality RAM chip which is faulty. Even if you did not and you have the original memory that came from Apple; you could still have a faulty memory chip that causes the kernel panics.
Here's some trouble-shooting steps (options):
1. Buy new RAM and swap all the chips to see if it works or not. While you are at it get more RAM as it's likely cheaper then it was when you bought the computer. Go for 1GB, you profile lists 512MB. This company is a good one and has a lifetime warranty on their RAM along with excellent customer service. They sell direct at wholesale prices. (IBM, Sun Microsystems and Apple buy RAM from Crucial) http://crucial.com/
2. Backup all your data and applications. Wipe and re-install the Mac OS X 10.3.9 and then install the applications and restore the data. Try using the system, see if it crashes. If it does, try step one as you just eliminated a possible software or operating system problem.
3. Upgrade the operating system to Tiger 10.4.9 as Panther is several years old and Tiger includes fixes for many issues, some of which were kernel panics and stability issues. You could just wait until October for Leopard and upgrade to 10.5. Both Tiger and soon, Leopard will be faster then Panther; even on older hardware.
4. The CPU contains very high speed RAM called Cache memory. If this memory is the bad memory then you'll need to replace the CPU. Since this is expensive, it should be the last resort. You may wish to consider a whole new computer at this point. Other chips on the main circuit board (motherboard) may also be faulty. There's no way to know for certain without shipping the computer to Apple for diagnostics and repair. You would need a full backup of your data in that case.
If you bought AppleCare there should be a bootable hardware diagnostics CD that you can use to run some hardware tests. However, just because RAM tests pass doesn't mean the memory is 100% good. The software tests might need to be run many times and even then the memory could still be bad. Unfortunately, the diagnostic disc won't always reveal a hardware problem unless it's a really bad one. Apple has more sophisticated test equipment in their repair center.
Best of luck, these kernel panic issues can be a royal pain in the neck to fix. I would like to stress that memory is the most likely culprit as it happens rather frequently. I support tens of thousands of computers and memory does go bad now and then. Sometimes there are bad "batches" of memory where we ordered a few thousand computers and hundreds of them had memory issues. I would start with full backup first then swap the RAM and see if the system is stable. If it keeps crashing then do another backup to ensure you've got everything and try reloading the operating system, applications, and restore the data. This takes a couple of days in some cases. Short of these two steps and the hardware diagnostics you might have a faulty motherboard or CPU.
It's a Kernel Panic here's an article explaining what it means:
http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2002/tn2063.html
The most likely culprit is a bad memory chip. The fact that's getting worse might indicate that more and more of the memory space is going bad. Solid state chips can break down due to heat, etc. There could be a microscopic short circuit that is causing the failure and it's getting worse as more and more transistors short out.
Memory stores data in binary; Zero's & One's billions of bits that flip between 1 & 0 billions of times a second. When memory goes bad it stops flipping some of those bits. i.e. they stay the same all the time; either Zero or One. The reason the problem is intermittent is because the operating system allocates sections of RAM and where things get allocated changes all the time. It depends entirely on what piece of data gets stored on the bad spot and what happens when the operating system writes one thing to RAM but reads an erroneous value back. i.e. it's not reading what it's expecting to read. If the unexpected value confuses the system it crashes with a kernel panic and the entire operating system halts. The debugging is available for advanced programmers to examine what happened but it's a very difficult process and it might not even tell the programmer enough information to determine the problem. Kernel faults are generally either bad hardware or a bad software driver that controls the hardware.
Did you upgrade your RAM three years ago? I am talking about memory chips not the hard disk. Where did you buy the RAM? Many Mac users have problems with cheap discount third party RAM. Mac's are very sensitive to bad RAM. PC's are too, that's why you hear about the infamous Blue Screen of Death (BSOD) in Windows. Well a kernel panic on a Mac is the exact same thing and most of the time it's a hardware problem that causes both the BSOD and a Mac OS X Kernel Panic. The most common problem is either defective / faulty RAM or very poor quality RAM.
Solid state chips like those that make up today's memory and CPU's are run through an assembly line. All chips of a particular model are the same. However during production some chips will be better then others in quality. More of the microscopic transistors are in a working state. The chips are all tested for speed and how much heat they dissipate. The ones that can run faster with less heat have a higher price because they are more rare. The slower chips that if you try to run them fast start to overheat, these are priced lower. Then you have the bottom of the barrel chips that barely perform reliably. Most of the time these chips are sold off for use in simple devices like digital clock radios, etc. Some entrepreneur buys these chips and sells them at a deep discount. They never should be put into PC's nor Mac's but they get sold that way anyway.
The high end Mac Pro systems such as the Quad and Dual Quad Mac Pro's are using ECC memory (Error Correcting Code). Most desktop computers take what's called "non-parity" memory and do not need error correction code (ECC), or "parity" modules. (However, in most cases ECC modules will work in desktops.) ECC modules look for errors in data and are most often found in servers and other mission-critical applications used by large networks and businesses. There are, however, a few desktop systems that do use ECC modules. You cannot mix ECC chips with non-ECC chips. Check to see if your system supports ECC and if it does, then try buying the ECC memory because it's super reliable.
If you added RAM to your system in the last three years, you may have put in a lower quality RAM chip which is faulty. Even if you did not and you have the original memory that came from Apple; you could still have a faulty memory chip that causes the kernel panics.
Here's some trouble-shooting steps (options):
1. Buy new RAM and swap all the chips to see if it works or not. While you are at it get more RAM as it's likely cheaper then it was when you bought the computer. Go for 1GB, you profile lists 512MB. This company is a good one and has a lifetime warranty on their RAM along with excellent customer service. They sell direct at wholesale prices. (IBM, Sun Microsystems and Apple buy RAM from Crucial) http://crucial.com/
2. Backup all your data and applications. Wipe and re-install the Mac OS X 10.3.9 and then install the applications and restore the data. Try using the system, see if it crashes. If it does, try step one as you just eliminated a possible software or operating system problem.
3. Upgrade the operating system to Tiger 10.4.9 as Panther is several years old and Tiger includes fixes for many issues, some of which were kernel panics and stability issues. You could just wait until October for Leopard and upgrade to 10.5. Both Tiger and soon, Leopard will be faster then Panther; even on older hardware.
4. The CPU contains very high speed RAM called Cache memory. If this memory is the bad memory then you'll need to replace the CPU. Since this is expensive, it should be the last resort. You may wish to consider a whole new computer at this point. Other chips on the main circuit board (motherboard) may also be faulty. There's no way to know for certain without shipping the computer to Apple for diagnostics and repair. You would need a full backup of your data in that case.
If you bought AppleCare there should be a bootable hardware diagnostics CD that you can use to run some hardware tests. However, just because RAM tests pass doesn't mean the memory is 100% good. The software tests might need to be run many times and even then the memory could still be bad. Unfortunately, the diagnostic disc won't always reveal a hardware problem unless it's a really bad one. Apple has more sophisticated test equipment in their repair center.
Best of luck, these kernel panic issues can be a royal pain in the neck to fix. I would like to stress that memory is the most likely culprit as it happens rather frequently. I support tens of thousands of computers and memory does go bad now and then. Sometimes there are bad "batches" of memory where we ordered a few thousand computers and hundreds of them had memory issues. I would start with full backup first then swap the RAM and see if the system is stable. If it keeps crashing then do another backup to ensure you've got everything and try reloading the operating system, applications, and restore the data. This takes a couple of days in some cases. Short of these two steps and the hardware diagnostics you might have a faulty motherboard or CPU.
olidawg - Apr 14, 2007 - 3:04 pm
Well, thanks for the news. We never replaced the RAM, so it must have just been faulty from Apple. We never got the Applecare, because Apple was suppose to be so great! I will look into getting a new RAM and more of it. If not, we might just get a new computer...Thanks for all of your help.
olidawg - Apr 15, 2007 - 4:32 pm
Thanks for the info. I think we will be buying a new RAM, but is that something we are able to return if it is the CPU?
stottm - Apr 15, 2007 - 5:00 pm
Depends on the company selling the RAM some will return your money no questions asked and others won't.
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