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TICKET ARCHIVE -> dead system at startup

bobbydaddy - Mar 1, 2008 - 11:21 pm

I just purchased two 1ghz dual cpu powermac G4s. they both have the same problem.

Upon boot, the system fan spools up and the red LED on the Logic board lights up. No reaction on the display. No chimes. The only way to shut to down the systems is to press and hold boot button.

I have tried the following:
pulled and reseated all ram one by one
installed new logic board battery
reset PRAM button
pulled and reseated video card
verified HDD connected properly

Please let me know what else I can try.

RAMPCHECK - Mar 2, 2008 - 11:51 pm

There is a reset button on the logic board, unplug the power and press and hold that button.

I cannot remember where the button is but it is somewhere close to the battery... Then plug the power back in and try to power the unit on.

If that does not work then the logic board may be dead.

bobbydaddy - Mar 2, 2008 - 11:54 pm

i have done all of that. I also noticed the power button light only comes on initially an then goes dark, but the fans are still spinning. then when I try to turn it off by holding down the button, it takes several attempts to get it to light up then shut the system down.

RAMPCHECK - Mar 2, 2008 - 11:57 pm

if you've reset the system switch, remove all the ram from the system and try powering on.

You should get 3 tones on start up.. if not then the logic board is bad.

bobbydaddy - Mar 2, 2008 - 11:59 pm

I tried all of that and did not ever get a tone. but since the powerbutton light is not staying lit, could the power switch board be bad?

RAMPCHECK - Mar 3, 2008 - 12:06 am

toy can try removing the power cable from the logic board and then pressing the system reset switch on the logic board to power it up, but this is unlikely.

The system should POST (Power On Self Test) as soon as you hit the power button and find no ram, therefore give you 3 tones and not the boot chime. Being that your not getting this far leads me to suspect that the board is bad. You can try removing the battery and power and letting the unit sit for 20 minutes or so, then try again (with out the ram). This will force a reset of the logic board as well.

We usually replace the logic board for this issue, or use too, its been a long time since i have seen it. thats due to the age of the machine.

bobbydaddy - Mar 3, 2008 - 12:10 am

so there is no way to test the switch board to make sure it is functioning, like a PC by jumping the pins? that is where all my experience is and the logic board in the apple is giving me fits.

RAMPCHECK - Mar 3, 2008 - 12:16 am

you mean test the power button?

Remove the cable that connects the front panel board to the logic board. Then press once on the system reset switch. the unit should power on and POST.

if not then it is hung somewhere on the board.

bobbydaddy - Mar 3, 2008 - 12:18 am

i was also going to try to reseat the cpu board to the logi board, and when i removed the heat sink. the cpu closer to the inside of the board looks blackened. any thoughts?

RAMPCHECK - Mar 3, 2008 - 12:21 am

where is it black and is it more of a grey (like thermal paste) or black like burned?

bobbydaddy - Mar 3, 2008 - 12:24 am

the inner upper corner (viewpoint facing MDD) is blackened.

bobbydaddy - Mar 3, 2008 - 1:04 am

i removed the thermal paste and the cpu itself was normal color. just the brouwn ring around it when you look down on it.

RAMPCHECK - Mar 3, 2008 - 1:10 am

If the daughter card that holds the processor looks OK, then I would not be too worried. Those G4 processors are hard to kill.

I once took a set of them out of a dual G4 and put then in a dryer with wet close and put them in high heat for 45 minutes... The machine still booted.

I just pulled up some information on the G4 that I had forgotten. You can try reseating the processors again and remove the video card again, with no video card and no ram, see if it gives the three tones.

I'm starting to think that the problem is with the firmware on the board (the BOIS in the mac world, that is no longer used).

bobbydaddy - Mar 3, 2008 - 1:13 am

i removed the thermal paste and the cpu itself was normal color. just the brouwn ring around it when you look down on it.

bobbydaddy - Mar 3, 2008 - 1:19 am

still no tones, no chimes. nada. just spinning fan, slowly at first then really loud.pulled battery and reset switch too many times to remember, reseated everything. started with and without ram and video card. nada for sound. and status light only on for a moment and then dark. but fan is still spinning.

RAMPCHECK - Mar 3, 2008 - 1:39 am

look at the power light when doing this, as a substitute for the tones, the power light should flash 3 times

bobbydaddy - Mar 3, 2008 - 1:44 am

no flashing, no beeping. just lit when i press really hard on the button then it goes dark and the main fan spins slowly, red led on board lights up. then the main fan spools up to an ungodly noise level and stays that way. the only time the power light indicator is lit is when pressed, and then not always. it only shuts down the system when pressed just right and held down. i have the identical problem on both systems.

RAMPCHECK - Mar 3, 2008 - 1:49 am

yeah that sounds like the firmware is bad on the board. I'm afraid theres not much you can do for it except replace the board. the fans running high is sort of a good sign, since that is firmware controlled but it does not sound like anything else is working

I would suspect that stripping everything down (HD, ram, Video card, etc) to a base configuration of processors, power button and power supply should give you something more then just the power light that responds only when the button is pressed

bobbydaddy - Mar 3, 2008 - 1:52 am

what can cause this so I can be sure to not have this happen in the future? this really sux. i got them both with 2 gigs of good ram. original video and hd for 100 each. good deal? how much do logic boards go for and where is the best place to source them? any recommendations?

RAMPCHECK - Mar 3, 2008 - 2:00 am

what caused it is hard to say... Its the same as bad BIOS on a PC logic board.

The processors are most likely still good but if you can find a board that still has the processor card thats what I would do.

Check ebay and a company called shreve systems out of shreveport LA. If I think of any other places I'll let ya know

bobbydaddy - Mar 4, 2008 - 3:14 am

i just won an auction for a logic board. i will be able to test this soon. what is the proper way to update the firmware?

RAMPCHECK - Mar 4, 2008 - 9:32 am

You shouldn't need to unless prompted to by the system. Updating the firmware is not as common as flashing the BIOS on a PC.

If the system boots up and everything works then your fine. You can look on the apple web site for firmware updates for your model but if you have the one I'm thinking about I don't remember one being out there.

bobbydaddy - Mar 5, 2008 - 1:24 am

thanks, i will let you know how it goes when I install the new board.

bobbydaddy - Mar 6, 2008 - 1:48 am

is there a key some where to install the OS?

RAMPCHECK - Mar 6, 2008 - 8:00 am

Nope, pop it in and follow the instructions

when it gets to the point where you select the destination disk, click on it and then options in the lower left corner of that window. Then select erase and install. This will make sure the disk is erased and ready for the install so your not installing over damaged files.

Let me know how it does

bobbydaddy - Mar 7, 2008 - 12:59 pm

the hard drives i am installing are brand new and need to be formatted or initialized, how does this work on mac. would it detect the two new drives and give the option to do so during the install?

RAMPCHECK - Mar 7, 2008 - 1:45 pm

during the install, when you get get to the destination disk, it should show the drive(s). From there you can erase them and or choose to install on them

bobbydaddy - Mar 10, 2008 - 1:30 am

i will not be getting the board till later in the week. I will contact you all later if I have any problems. thanks again for all your help.

RAMPCHECK - Mar 11, 2008 - 9:15 am

Just keep me updated, you can also send me a private notification on this board as well if the ticket gets closed before you get the new logic board put in.

bobbydaddy - Mar 12, 2008 - 1:15 pm

i replaced the logic board with a supposedly good unit and still have the same issue. please help.

bobbydaddy - Mar 15, 2008 - 2:03 am

bump-i replaced the logic board with a supposedly good unit and still have the same issue. please help.
Edit Post

bobbydaddy - Mar 17, 2008 - 9:09 am

hello?

Serenak - Mar 18, 2008 - 7:51 am

Hello

I have read this thread with some confusion - although I don't disagree with anything you have done so far it seems pretty unlikely to have 2 Macs with exactly the same dead boards - and a 3rd just seems almost impossible

Have you tried both the power supplies on the "new" board? Have you considered having the PSUs tested - I would think anyone competent with a multimeter could check that for you - if the output is no good you will be unlikely to boot anything

You say the fans come on and run up to unholy speed - that is correct behaviour if the fans get no "control" input they are supposed to ramp up to max speed.

I don't really know what else to suggest - swapping round the CPUs?

Either you have been /spectacularly/ unlucky or there is something wrong that I am just not seeing but 3 dead boards? I don't see it myself - those G4s tend to be pretty tough.

bobbydaddy - Mar 18, 2008 - 11:59 pm

i am open to suggestions. do you have a resource for the voltage map for the power supply connector plug?

Serenak - Mar 19, 2008 - 4:24 pm

I am afraid I don't - try Google, it must be out there somewhere - look on the PSU also in case it is marked on there. Also the PSU may have a Part No or similar that will assist you.

bobbydaddy - Mar 21, 2008 - 10:34 pm

what is the board in the front of the powermac that contains the powerbutton called? and is there a map of the plugs for that board?

Serenak - Mar 22, 2008 - 5:20 pm

again I am afraid I don't - you are moving outside my field of experience... I am a software guy and you really need a hardware specialist or EE geek

Would you like me to open this to other techs? Or perhaps you might be better starting a new ticket specifically asking for advice about the power button etc.

Sorry I can't be a great deal of help - but I didn't like to see you "left hanging" as it were...

bobbydaddy - Mar 23, 2008 - 2:50 am

I have tested the powersupply and all the pins are testing correct for both machines. I am now at a loss for ideas. if there are any hardware experts out there I would love to speak to them. I have a strong hardware and software background in PC's (20 years) but am stumped with these apples. Please help anyway you can.

bobbydaddy - Mar 25, 2008 - 3:03 am

hello?

jvendryes - Apr 4, 2008 - 12:08 pm

Hi Brandon,
This may be a long shot but I have seen it before. Have you tried using different RAM in the machine. I have seen RAM cause issues exactly as what you are describing before.

Please let me know!
Thanks,
Jason

bobbydaddy - Apr 4, 2008 - 1:14 pm

Jason,

Thanks for the reply! I have tried 8 different pieces of 512 Ram and have had the same results. I have tried to boot without any RAM. I have tried booting only with 1 stick, 8 times in both machines. Same result. I am completely stumped.

jvendryes - Apr 4, 2008 - 1:23 pm

FYI the board on the front that holds the power button is called the Front Panel Board.

I am sorry that was my best shot, the guys above have said what I would have said... I will make this an active topic again.

Best of luck, if I think of another option I will chime in!
Jason

bobbydaddy - Apr 4, 2008 - 1:28 pm

Thanks, I am desperate. I literally have two sweet systems that I cannot use except as end tables. Any help would be appreciated.

Cheryl - May 4, 2008 - 7:45 am

I hope you have not given up. I do have a few ideas that might help you.

With a new logic board, and knowing your power supply is good, the next step is to check everything else inside.
The back of those machines should have a sticker with the model number. Those model numbers will help in determining exactly what should be in/on the machine. Are the stickers still there?

If there is an airport card - remove it.

Check all the wires and cables for breaks, especially the power wires and the power cord. A pinched wire will cause a major headache.

Check the back of the machine near the power outlet for a tiny black switch. This switch changes the power supply from US to Europe electrical standards. Make sure you have it on the correct setting.

Sometimes it is the little things that we overlook that is the cause.

Cheryl