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TICKET ARCHIVE -> Dvd Jitter

Naveenkhan - Apr 27, 2005 - 7:25 am

Dear Sir,
We are a Premier Media Institute of India viz.AJK Mass Communication Research Centre, New Delhi and using Final Cut Pro 4.1.1 in conjunction with Toast Titanium 6.0.3. We have used Roxio on G4 with Jaguar 10.2.8 and Panther 10.3.2 and on G5 with Panther 10.3.2 for encoding the DVD and VCD media. The problem which we have noticed with using the Roxio for encoding the DVD is that the Video Jitters i.e a trail is observed on playback when played back on a standby Player and viewed on Broadcast Monitor. This jitter is not visible when the DVD is viewed using the superdrive on the Apple studio Display or progressive scanning monitor. We have also reported the problem to M/s Apple Inc. New Delhi,India but to no avail. We have all legal versions of the Final Cut pro and Toast titanium, and all our standby players have been tested.
Please advise us to rectify the problem.
Naveen Khan
naveenkhan69@gmail.com
New Delhi-25

Drumhum - Apr 28, 2005 - 9:49 am

Dear Naveen Khan,

Hello my name is Tom and I shall try and assist you with your problem. In my experience problems such as these can be quite tricky to sort out but where there is a will there is a way!

I have experienced something similar to this. In my video studio we noticed that dvds we made, when played on any system, displayed video that looked like there was an interlacing problem. small horizontal lines were noticed particularly on movement. It was the effect one sees with interlaced video played on progressive scanned monitors. We found that it was an encoding problem when we captured video footage in the analogue domain at a resolution of 768x576 (PAL). If the footage was captured in the dv resolution of 720x576 the problem disappeared. Even if we converted the footage from 768 to 720 before encoding, the problem would exist! The only way around it for us was to recapture footage at 720. We use Media100 to capture and edit, idvd to encode.

I feel I need to know more about what is happening and what you are doing to help you properly.

Can you explain with more detail what the picture looks like. Jitter makes me think of dropped frames but I don't think that is what you have - right? As for "trails", could this be the interlacing effect - sort of short horizontal lines, most noticeable on fast moving objects? Please clarify.

Can you also give more details as to your workflow. That is, what format is your source footage before encoding. If you have captured it from tape what hardware are you using. Are you using finalcut pro to capture. Are you PAL? etc

I am also intrigued as to why you use Toast to encode. You should have "compressor" with finalcut pro. Why not use that to encode. Have you tried? is the result the same?

It is interesting that your results are fine in progressive scanned monitors but not on interlaced monitors. It certainly points to an interlacing problem. Progressive scan monitors effectively de-interlace the picture before displaying it so if your video has been interlaced incorrectly any problem may not be noticable on a progressive scan monitor. When you encode for DVD you often have to set the order of interlacing (eg odd field first etc) If you get these the wrong way round then it is possible you would have issues like you describe.

I am also wondering if you are encoding to the wrong TV standard - eg you are encoding the dvd in NTSC for a PAL monitor. This can result in what some call jitter - looks like a dropped frame every second or so - very noticeable in smooth panning shots.

have you tried encoding in other software? I'd give idvd a go just to see if you can replicate the problem. I just have a feeling that it is the encoding to MPEG-2 that is the problem - of course it could be something else!

So In summary: please supply more details of your entire system including computer, capture card (if any), video player, video codec/format you edit in, any other settings. Encode/burn a movie with idvd to see if you get the same results. Consider using Apple's Compressor too. Also are you PAL, NTSC etc?

let me know how you get on and if you still have problems I shall dig deeper into the issues once you give me more info.


Thanks for using Macosx.com

Regards
Tom
(AKA Drumhum)


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Naveenkhan - Apr 28, 2005 - 10:58 am

Dear Tom, Thanks a TON for your suggestion and I will get back to you after your advice again tomorrow.
It is true that we can also use compressor for encoding our footage and I will certainly try this option as well. I will try to explain the problem of Jitter to you.We are certainly users of PAL in New Delhi,India. When there is no movement in the frame i.e composition the results are perfect. But if an object moves even slowly,then a trail of his movement is observed till the object exits the frame or stops. I have used DV footage on FCP-4.1.1 with quick time 6.3 and captured at the Pixel Aspect Ratio of 720x576,Compressor DV-PAL, worked on the sequence at the same pixel ratio,Compressor DV-PAL and Field Dominance of Lower(Even) for DV PAL projects as per tutorials of FCP on the various sites. We are using PD-150P,PD-170P,DSR-57P for shooting.Yeah offlate I have used iDVD for encoding and there is no trail in the same footage. We are using Firewire 400 port on the system and captured on SCSI-0 and even external LACIE Firewire-200GB drives. We have used Apple's G5 single or Dual Processor(1.8GHZ) or even G4 single 933MHZ or dual 1 GHZ with sufficient RAM of 1GB for FCP projects.
Shall I change the Field Dominance to Upper ODD for the sequence while working on DV-PAL projects which is contrary to the recommendations of the Tutorials.
Anyway I will gat back to you after this homework.
Many many thanks for your invaluable advice.
Naveen Khan,New Delhi-25

Drumhum - Apr 28, 2005 - 11:21 am

Naveen,
From what you tell me so far, it seems you are ding things right. The field dominance setting is correct too so leave it at lower (even).

The fact that it encodes ok in idvd certainly points to an issue with toast. It never ceases to amaze me how troublesome MPEG-2/dvd encoding is! Toast is pretty basic application and there is certainly better software for encoding (compressor for eg) idvd is barely adequate in my opinion. One advantage of compressor is that it gives you real time previews before encoding so you can check to see what it will look like post encode. You may also want to consider getting DVDstudio pro which really is the thing to use for DVD creation - especially for pro work. It could be, using compressor for encoding and toast to burn is the way forward but lets see what you find after further investigation.

thanks for the kind remarks

regards
Tom

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Naveenkhan - Apr 29, 2005 - 1:25 pm

Dear Tom, Regards
Yeah I have tried to encode with Compressor and Burned the DVD with Roxio and the results were perfect.Phew!
But what intrigues me now is why the encoding with Roxio gives us a Trail in the movement.Is it some version of Roxio which is giving problem as any higher updates on version 6 of roxio are charged on the NET unlike M/s Apple Inc. Another problem with using iDVD is that we cannot use DVD-RW Disc's at all.Please also tell me whether mpg1 encoding is better in Roxio or Compressor.One slight ad of using roxio is that we can make DATA disc in multiple session but is the feature available in the Finder. I still have lots of queries to ask those favours from you.Can I also ask those?
I am really touched with your helping attitude and convey thanks on behalf of my Institution.
Naveen Khan
naveenkhan69@gmail.com

Drumhum - Apr 30, 2005 - 8:21 am

Naveen Khan,

Good to hear we have found the source of the problem!

There is not one standard way of encoding to MPEG-2. It really is quite a complicated process. To get to the standards seen on top quality commercial film release DVD's involves very sophisticated procedures and software. It can take many days working on a scene by scene (or camera angle) basis! To get good encodes, the actual type of picture (eg is it dark, bright, fast moving etc) needs to be taken into account and these aspects are not catered for by the likes of idvd and roxio and by definition these packages will only ever be able to reach barely acceptable results. I have noted that others have had similar experiences with Roxio to you. Quite simply, for DVD encoding Roxio is rubbish and best kept away from! I do not feel updating roxio would be the answer though there may well be improvements - see if there is any mention of this on the roxio website.

Compressor is a much more professional tool with far better encoding algorithms. There are far more encoding parameters under your control so you can get exactly the results you want. I'm sure it will beat the pants off roxio for MPEG-1 too. I have not tried a comparison myself though.

I use Roxio as a CD and DVD burner because it offers far more facilities than the Finder. Roxio's strength is its ability to reliably burn discs in many formats. I'd happily recommend this software for that purpose (but not for movie encoding!)

Just as a comment regarding multisession CDs... Do you really need to do this? blank cds are so cheap now why not just burn single session? Multi session CDs are pretty reliable but not as robust as single. For really valuable data I would always choose the most straight forward method of single session.

If Roxio or idvd could make perfect DVDs why would anyone ever use the likes of compressor or iDVDstudio pro? Unfortunately, If one wants professional results one must use professional tools for the job. For DVD this means idvdStudio pro, compressor and a top end mac. It is amazing, though what can be achieved with cheap or mac supplied software. And thats why we love the mac!

Feel free to respond but if you have other, unrelated queries may I suggest you place a fresh question via the tech support link. This way you are more likely to get the most suitable, experienced Tech to answer your question. If you feel strongly that you want a response from me then putting my username (drumhum) in the subject line may prove fruitful but I cannot guarantee it - its just the way the system works I'm afraid.

Thanks again for your kind words. Its nice to know help is appreciated.

Reagrds

Tom
(drumhum)
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Naveenkhan - May 21, 2005 - 7:13 am

Dear Tom, I hope this will get to you. Just to apprise you of the latest developments on this front. I have posted threads on the roxio support forums and have got response from them. There seems to be a problem with the versions of Roxio 6.0.3 which has bugs. I have even updated this to roxio 6.1 but again the problem persists that of wrong aspect ratio on the burnt DVD.I have been advised to update the OS to the latest panther version which they say roxio is optimised on.
But on higher versions of OS the FCP starts giving problem. I am stuck now as merely for using ROXIO I cannot make the FCP go berserk on Panther 10.3.9.
Thanks for making me a part of your family and showering all your knowledge and opinions to me. I feel honoured and previledged to talk to you.
So on a hot and and a very very hot day indeed, at New Delhi, bye for now.
Naveen Khan,New Delhi

Drumhum - May 21, 2005 - 7:48 am

Naveen,

Thanks for sharing the developments.

Do you ever get that feeling that by the time software developers get things right for DVD encoding we'll be onto blu-ray dvd's and H.264!!

I never got on well with 10.3.9 and moved to Tiger 10.4 as soon as I could. I've advised colleagues to stick to 10.3.8 or step up to Tiger. Tiger is better now its 10.4.1

If, like you mentioned earlier, you are still using FCP4.1.1, an up-date to 4.5 from the apple website could provide a fix for you. Might be worth a try. I'd be careful with the new quicktime update (QT 7) though. Many people have had "issues", especially when using 10.3.9 it seems.

Its been a pleasure serving you

Cheers

Tom


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