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TICKET ARCHIVE -> Finder's spring loaded folder oddity

nuubie - Oct 21, 2006 - 4:53 pm

So I'm moving a file in Column view (latest OS X) and it suddenly moves the columns all the way to the left. So if I've made a mistake, I have to start over. I don't think Finder used to do this. Maybe it was the 10.4.8 update? This is hard to explain. But if you can imagine I'm moving a file from a folder in the 3rd column to a folder in the 2nd column but suddenly the 2nd column becomes the 1st column because Finder, in its infinite wisdom has decided that its supposed to move all the columns to the left. Is there anything I can do? This is a Column View question - not interested in List or Icon View, thanks. Its like there are options:
Non-spring loaded folders.
Spring loaded folders.
Psychic spring loaded folders.

Another Finder oddity: When I want to go left in Column View and I'm at the left most column (no blue horizontal scroll bar on the bottom which is weird) you would think it should be Command+Up Arrow. But when I do that nothing happens. When I do it again, it goes up 2 levels. ????????? Is this just me? Could my installation be this screwed up? If so, what could have caused it? And yes, I do my Permissions chores regularly.

DeltaMac - Oct 21, 2006 - 5:31 pm

Hey Robin -
There were a significant number of changes for 10.4.8, but I don't think anything specific that would affect the behavior that you describe. I have often provided a tip that CAN help when new issues appear that seem to be bugs (and what you see could be a bug), which is: Download and install the 10.4.8 COMBINED updater. It will install on top of what you have, and seems to 'reset' parts of the system that might have been affected by the upgrade 10.4.8 through the system updater. Well, it won't hurt, and if your behavior returns to what you have had in the past, that's a good thing....

I've put some thought to what you have complained about in the past (basically, your 'fun' with keyboard commands to navigate up or down folders.) SO - as you may know, I use my Mac quite differently from you, and I think of myself as part of the 'Mac way', but I do things differently than other Mac users that I know... To make this short - if you have two folders where you often move files back & forth - create aliases for both those folders, and put the aliases on your desktop (or somewhere else very convenient to you). The real folders remain where they are, but dropping files on those aliases moves those files to where you need them without the extra bother of trying to work out the up/down folder sequence. And folder actions work as well, to use smart folders for distributing files automatically to sub-folders. I don't mess with the smart folders myself, but use the 'shortcut folders' quite often, and change them out as my needs change. I don't know if this hint will do anything for you, but if you haven't tried this easy way of moving files, you should try it, I hope you find it useful...
- Dale

nuubie - Oct 23, 2006 - 6:08 am

Your suggestion sounds like something Apple would say because this area of their OS simply is designed poorly. You know, its OK to admit that somethings in OS X simply DON'T WORK. How are they going to improve if they don't realize their shortcomings? Shortcuts are not an answer because I'm moving things around to different locations all the time. I was using Pathfinder but its slower than Finder in many instances and often crashes.

I just got the updater as you suggested. Hope it works better. Will update when I'm sure what's going on. Thanks again.

DeltaMac - Oct 23, 2006 - 2:47 pm

Look out - 'yes, but' coming!
Yes, but are you saying that you never move files to/from the same folder path twice? It's very quick to setup a couple of folders on your desktop, each with several different aliases of your various folder locations. They could even be identical. Tunnel down to your source folder, and drag the file to the other alias folder, dragging the file down through spring-loaded folders into the destination folder, release the file, and any folders opened during the drag all close back down, and your desktop returns to normal, all complete in a couple of seconds. Also, this technique is simple to modify if your needs change, and one way out of dozens that I have seen.
Sorry for the Apple-speak here, but the Mac OS 'thinks different', and your opinions about various design shortcomings are not necessarily echoed by other 'switchers', and it seems that Apple does not share your point of view... If you were in the position to look at a lot of different Mac setups, as I am, you would quickly note that no one uses their Mac in the same way. Some fill up their desktop with useless stuff, others are totally clean, and others use folders full of aliases, without using any of the 'eye candy' that Apple makes available.

- on a side note -
I gave up on Macintosh Explorer a couple of years ago, when they kept updating without actually improving anything, and it looks like that app is still needing much work.

Sorry, I'm just an old Apple fiend - I don't pretend it's perfect, but I worked for Dell, answering PC tech support calls for a couple of years, and Windows is a great crippled mystery (to me) compared to the Mac.
Hope this isn't too much rambling around....
- Dale

nuubie - Oct 23, 2006 - 3:17 pm

I move hundreds of files to different locations each day. Shortcuts are not an option.

I got the updater - still the same. But I sure am glad I know about it now. Good advice for the future. There might be a 10.4.9 before Macworld in Jan.....who know? But I doubt it. Sounds better if there's a bit of a "jump" to "THE NEW OPERATING SYSTEM!".

One odd thing about Mac Explorer is that no view settings are retained. Once you set it up and open a new window (without even closing the previous window or quiting the program) its the default layout. Quite bizarre. Otherwise it looks promising. Of course more promising for recent Windows converts perhaps.

Back to the column dilemma. I'm pretty sure it didn't move the column over to the left before though I'm not completely sure. I've gone over Finder's Preferences to no avail. Nothing seems applicable. Can you repool this? If you have any suggestions as to better describe this behavior that would be great. Success here is hinged on one's descriptive ability. And thanks again for the good tips.

BTW, in your Mac years, have you come across any Mac users using iListen to decrease the amount of typing they have to do - I'm talking about people that have a choice, not handicapped people. It sure would be nice to get something working like that. Even with a few errors.

cfr - Oct 24, 2006 - 1:30 am

I will start by expressing a certain amount of sympathy. I find Finder the single most frustrating - and poorly designed - application on my computer. Or, to be more accurate, the worst of those I haven't found a way to avoid. I almost always use Finder in column view and I find the behaviour you describe equally nonsensical. If Apple do not consider it a bug, so much the worse for Apple. There is, however, a work around - at least, it works for me. For some reason, it seems to work like this:
1. Suppose I have document myfile in Documents > mystuff and I consider moving it to Documents > myother-stuff. I drag it towards myother-stuff in the second column and bingo, Finder moves everything left.
2. I change my mind and decide Documents > myother-other-stuff would be better. If I drag the document momentarily outside of any finder window (i.e. over the desktop), Finder bizarrely moves all the columns back to their original position. Or, actually, it seems to move them so that Documents is no longer the first column but the third or something. In any case, I now have access to mystuff, myother-stuff, myother-other-stuff etc.

This is probably why I almost always move, copy and delete files from the command line. Occasionally, though I need Finder and soon remember how much I like the command line.

For what it is worth, I cannot properly be called a switcher since I "switched" in 2001 and haven't used Windows beyond Windows 95, so I must surely count as one of the many Mac users who cannot stand Finder. The application just does not meet the needs of users who really need to browse and maintain the file system quickly. The Tiger version is actually worse than previous versions because setting it to show all files makes all files appear greyed out whereas pre-Tiger only "hidden" files appeared this way. (They are, of course, only "hidden" by Finder.) Apparently, Apple not only wishes to hide these files from "ordinary" users, but wants to make life as difficult as possible for the "non-ordinary" (??) users as well.

Apologies for the rant. Let me know if this work around helps. Otherwise, I'll try to think of something else.

By the way, command + pg up seems to behave as you'd expect on my machine in the case you describe and does take me up one level. On the other hand, the sidebar-behaviour of my Finder is indescribably odd, so apparently there's no winning.

If you know any unix, the command line is much easier, much quicker and much less frustrating than Finder. I can't imagine running my machine without using the command line frequently.

Please let me know if any of this helps or not.

- cfr

nuubie - Oct 25, 2006 - 9:37 am

CFR: A brilliant reply. Wow. Many, many thanks. And you know, its good to admit an OS's weaknesses. OS X has many strengths that we all enjoy. But we only improve something if we focus on its shortcomings. Its kind of negative, but its simply the way life seems to work.

I'm happy to report that Path Finder (I'm using version 4.1.1, the latest is 4.5 I think) doesn't hop around. I wonder if you've tried it? I just wish Path Finder had more keyboard shortcuts. Or perhaps they are there but I don't know about them.

And Tinkertool can help tame and control Finder as well.

Your first suggestion works if the Finder window is not Full Xcreen. Unfortunately I'm always in Full Screen as I use Alt+Tab to switch between open programs.

So I guess I'll go back to Path Finder. I do find Finder a little snappier though. Perhaps I haven't disabled enough features of Path Finder and its bogged down doing unnecessary stuff.

nuubie - Oct 25, 2006 - 9:37 am

CFR: A brilliant reply. Wow. Many, many thanks. And you know, its good to admit an OS's weaknesses. OS X has many strengths that we all enjoy. But we only improve something if we focus on its shortcomings. Its kind of negative, but its simply the way life seems to work.

I'm happy to report that Path Finder (I'm using version 4.1.1, the latest is 4.5 I think) doesn't hop around. I wonder if you've tried it? I just wish Path Finder had more keyboard shortcuts. Or perhaps they are there but I don't know about them.

And Tinkertool can help tame and control Finder as well.

Your first suggestion works if the Finder window is not Full Xcreen. Unfortunately I'm always in Full Screen as I use Alt+Tab to switch between open programs.

So I guess I'll go back to Path Finder. I do find Finder a little snappier though. Perhaps I haven't disabled enough features of Path Finder and its bogged down doing unnecessary stuff.

cfr - Oct 26, 2006 - 2:50 am

Ruby,

I don't think so. At first I thought you were right as I created some new directories (without .DS_Store files) to experiment with and all seemed well. However, all stayed well _after_ .DS_Store files appeared.

I have an alternative hypothesis: it depends on shortcuts in the side-bar. If the destination directory exists as a sidebar shortcut, Finder will truncate the path; if the destination directory doesn't but it's parent does, Finder truncates the path to the parent etc.

Is it different for you?

It doesn't make any sense I don't think - and wouldn't even if the sidebar was less flaky - so surely it has to be a bug?

- cfr

nuubie - Oct 26, 2006 - 7:31 am

Are you responding to me? I'm not following your comments at all. I tried expermimenting with the sidebar but I can't even get it to come up. NO matter, I guess, since I don't use it.

Have you tried Path Finder?

nuubie - Oct 26, 2006 - 7:32 am

Are you responding to me? I'm not following your comments at all. I tried expermimenting with the sidebar but I can't even get it to come up. NO matter, I guess, since I don't use it.

Have you tried Path Finder?

cfr - Oct 26, 2006 - 12:10 pm

Sorry. I assumed that you would also see the comments of somebody else who jumped in on this ticket (which I didn't know was possible) and asked me to test a hypothesis that Finder's "jumping" only occurs when the destination folder contains a .DS_Store file (not visible in Finder unless you've changed the settings e.g. with Tinkertool).

I haven't tried Path Finder partly because I've read mixed reviews, partly because it costs money (and this annoys me just because the application is so basic Apple's OS _should_ include a decent Finder in the first place) but mainly because the command line is so easy and so fast (once you're used to it). Since I would have to use the CLI anyway for other things, I just find it easiest to use that and it avoids having to get used to another programme and another way of doing things. I fully recognise I'm in the minority of Mac users here as most won't touch the CLI, but I switched to Mac partly because OS X came out and I wanted to learn unix but also be able to get stuff done in the meantime. I think it is a very personal decision - some people just rave about Path Finder, others like Mac Explorer etc. I guess it all depends on how people's work styles differ and what else they do. My avoidance of Path Finder isn't a criticism of the application by any means. It is a little like choice of browser and email programmes, I think. Strange though it seems, I still haven't found an email programme I prefer to pine which is a text-based CLI reader. I've experimented with a bunch, but I always come back to pine and the same has happened to me with file management software.

(Too long an answer, but I don't want to unintentionally appear to be criticising other people's preferences. I just think different people work best in different ways and you have to find the way that works for you.)

The sidebar in Finder is actually always there. In column view, it is the far left column - the one which stays there even if you switch to icon view or whatever. It isn't the sort of collapsible sidebar you'd expect.

Apologies again for the confusion. I wonder how I'm meant to respond to someone who jumps in... will have to look into it.

- cfr