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Question Profile
| DATE | Nov 3, 2007 |
| TICKET | #334890 |
| STATUS | Closed |
| SUBJECT | Hard Drive |
| CAT | Computers, Operating Systems, Applications or Connected Devices |
| TYPE | Computer Hardware (RAM, Drives, Video Cards, Motherbaord, CPU, etc) |
| DESC | Motherboard |
| DESC | |
| PLATFORM | Apple Macintosh (PowerPC G3,G4,G5) |
| MODEL | iBook G4 |
| PROC | 933Mhz |
| RAM | 640Mb |
| DRIVE | 120Gb |
| NAME | Scott |
| USERNAME | longston |
| TECHNICAL | Lots of Experience |
| ISSUE | Need Second Opinion |
Question Details
TICKET ARCHIVE -> Hard Drive
longston - Nov 3, 2007 - 4:57 pm
I just completed several upgrades to my 933Mhz iBook G4 including replacing the old (dead) 40Gb hard drive with a factory sealed 120Gb Seagate hard drive, replacing the original CW-8123-C combo drive with a new UJ-845 SuperDrive, and adding a 512Mb RAM module. After I reassembled the iBook, everything worked fine except the hard drive doesn't show up on the desktop, in Disk Utility, or in the System Profiler.
I can easily boot the iBook from a DVD, or external hard drive using firewire.
The iBook works perfectly connected with a firewire cable to my external 160Gb hard drive running OS 10.4.10.
The new 120Gb internal hard drive works fine outside of the iBook when connected through firewire.
I replaced the hard drive ribbon cable in the iBook just in case that was damaged in the upgrade process, and it made no difference. I have no way of testing either cable to see if that was the problem after all, but I just happened to get another dead cable as the replacement.
The new internal hard drive still doesn't work in my iBook.
Have you seen this problem before, is it related to a logic board problem, or do you have any other suggestions?
I can easily boot the iBook from a DVD, or external hard drive using firewire.
The iBook works perfectly connected with a firewire cable to my external 160Gb hard drive running OS 10.4.10.
The new 120Gb internal hard drive works fine outside of the iBook when connected through firewire.
I replaced the hard drive ribbon cable in the iBook just in case that was damaged in the upgrade process, and it made no difference. I have no way of testing either cable to see if that was the problem after all, but I just happened to get another dead cable as the replacement.
The new internal hard drive still doesn't work in my iBook.
Have you seen this problem before, is it related to a logic board problem, or do you have any other suggestions?
DeltaMac - Nov 3, 2007 - 5:18 pm
Do you hear the hard drive start up when you turn the iBook on? If you hear nothing, then the IDE cable might be bad - but seems unlikely that two cables are bad, eh?
That dead hard drive may not have been dead, or maybe it took the IDE bus with it. That's not good, and would likely mean replacing the logic board.
Something to check - the IDE cable curls around the edge of the logic board. Check _that_ connection very closely. I have seen a couple with damaged connectors. It's tough to inspect - I have to use a magnifying glass and a bright light to check
- Dale
That dead hard drive may not have been dead, or maybe it took the IDE bus with it. That's not good, and would likely mean replacing the logic board.
Something to check - the IDE cable curls around the edge of the logic board. Check _that_ connection very closely. I have seen a couple with damaged connectors. It's tough to inspect - I have to use a magnifying glass and a bright light to check
- Dale
longston - Nov 3, 2007 - 7:19 pm
Thanks for the quick response, Dale.
As a matter of fact, I've just removed the bottom shield and started up the iBook upside down so I could see if the drive actually does spin up. The problem is these new drives are so damn whisper quiet, but after careful inspection, I can confidently report that there is no sign of activity from that hard drive, so I doubt if it's powering up at all.
1. The cable: the replacement came from an ebaY laptop dismantler, and had been taped into a bundle that included spare mounting brackets and screws, so it could very possibly be defective. I wish this could be reliably tested to eliminate it as a suspect.
2. The old drive: was making that noise that sounds like a tiny pirate with a metal leg walking across a steel deck. However, it did get power right up to the very last start-up.
The former Mrs. Harddrive was, as the Munchkins put it, "Undeniably and Reliably Dead". ("As Coroner I must aver, I thoroughly examined her. and she's not only merely dead, she's really most sincerely dead.").
After I replaced her, and the new drive wouldn't work, I even had a local shop test her out of the iBook, and she was still peg-leggin' then.
3. The IDE bus: I have been told that the problem could be here because the optical drive in on another bus entirely so the fact that it's working isn't relative.
4. The connector on the logic board: I've already inspected it several times with a jeweler's loupe under a halogen desk lamp, and can see no signs of cracks or breaks anywhere.
So I'm still not sure if this is a bad connector, or a logic board problem.
As a matter of fact, I've just removed the bottom shield and started up the iBook upside down so I could see if the drive actually does spin up. The problem is these new drives are so damn whisper quiet, but after careful inspection, I can confidently report that there is no sign of activity from that hard drive, so I doubt if it's powering up at all.
1. The cable: the replacement came from an ebaY laptop dismantler, and had been taped into a bundle that included spare mounting brackets and screws, so it could very possibly be defective. I wish this could be reliably tested to eliminate it as a suspect.
2. The old drive: was making that noise that sounds like a tiny pirate with a metal leg walking across a steel deck. However, it did get power right up to the very last start-up.
The former Mrs. Harddrive was, as the Munchkins put it, "Undeniably and Reliably Dead". ("As Coroner I must aver, I thoroughly examined her. and she's not only merely dead, she's really most sincerely dead.").
After I replaced her, and the new drive wouldn't work, I even had a local shop test her out of the iBook, and she was still peg-leggin' then.
3. The IDE bus: I have been told that the problem could be here because the optical drive in on another bus entirely so the fact that it's working isn't relative.
4. The connector on the logic board: I've already inspected it several times with a jeweler's loupe under a halogen desk lamp, and can see no signs of cracks or breaks anywhere.
So I'm still not sure if this is a bad connector, or a logic board problem.
longston - Nov 3, 2007 - 7:22 pm
longston - Nov 5, 2007 - 7:59 pm
OK, now I have two emails from macosx.com claiming that I haven't responded to the answer from Dale.
ScottW - Nov 8, 2007 - 1:14 pm
Scott,
I would verify that the drive is formatted correctly as a startup drive for your machine. You can format it at install time to see if it will see it and allow you to format it, by following the options that allow you to do that or running Disk Utility form the install CD. You can also run Disk utility and format it correctly as a external drive. If you can boot from it as an external drive, you should be good to go. You could always install the OS on the external drive to see if it would work that way before putting it back inside.
Also, using Disk Utility you can view the HD and see what the "Partition Map" is. It should be Apple Partition Map.
Scott
I would verify that the drive is formatted correctly as a startup drive for your machine. You can format it at install time to see if it will see it and allow you to format it, by following the options that allow you to do that or running Disk Utility form the install CD. You can also run Disk utility and format it correctly as a external drive. If you can boot from it as an external drive, you should be good to go. You could always install the OS on the external drive to see if it would work that way before putting it back inside.
Also, using Disk Utility you can view the HD and see what the "Partition Map" is. It should be Apple Partition Map.
Scott
longston - Nov 8, 2007 - 2:00 pm
Scott,
Thanks for the reply, but I need to refer you to the last sentence of the first paragraph of my original posting.
"After I reassembled the iBook, everything worked fine except the hard drive doesn't show up on the Desktop, in Disk Utility, or in the System Profiler."
I can't do anything you suggest if the computer won't acknowledge that the drive is even connected. I also do not have an external enclosure for a 2.5 drive. I had the drive tested and formatted by the best Mac tech shop in my area using their own external Macally PH250CC enclosure.
Further testing on my part, i.e. removing the bottom case and shield, then starting the computer with it upside down so I can listen to the hard drive to see if it's working, tells me that the drive isn't even spinning. It doesn't seem to be getting power at all.
Back to where I last left off, "I'm still not sure if this is a bad connector" (cable), "or a logic board problem.".
I had a shop in Cincinatti tell me (via email) that they presume the problem to be bad power chips that overheated and failed. I don't understand how that could have happened because the old drive powered up and ran (or at least tried to) right down to the last shutdown prior to my disassembly of the iBook.
I don't see how just installing a new hard drive could have caused a power chip failure. I'm more inclined to believe that I simply have a second defective ribbon cable connecting the hard drive to the logic board.
I surmise the following scenario, the first one failed on disassembly, and the second one was already defective. Several techs have told me that these ribbon cables are a one-time use item, and they replace them as a matter of course when replacing a hard drive in an iBook.
I will be getting a copy of TechTool Pro 4.5.2 today and running it on the iBook to see if it detects any hardware problems.
Thanks for the reply, but I need to refer you to the last sentence of the first paragraph of my original posting.
"After I reassembled the iBook, everything worked fine except the hard drive doesn't show up on the Desktop, in Disk Utility, or in the System Profiler."
I can't do anything you suggest if the computer won't acknowledge that the drive is even connected. I also do not have an external enclosure for a 2.5 drive. I had the drive tested and formatted by the best Mac tech shop in my area using their own external Macally PH250CC enclosure.
Further testing on my part, i.e. removing the bottom case and shield, then starting the computer with it upside down so I can listen to the hard drive to see if it's working, tells me that the drive isn't even spinning. It doesn't seem to be getting power at all.
Back to where I last left off, "I'm still not sure if this is a bad connector" (cable), "or a logic board problem.".
I had a shop in Cincinatti tell me (via email) that they presume the problem to be bad power chips that overheated and failed. I don't understand how that could have happened because the old drive powered up and ran (or at least tried to) right down to the last shutdown prior to my disassembly of the iBook.
I don't see how just installing a new hard drive could have caused a power chip failure. I'm more inclined to believe that I simply have a second defective ribbon cable connecting the hard drive to the logic board.
I surmise the following scenario, the first one failed on disassembly, and the second one was already defective. Several techs have told me that these ribbon cables are a one-time use item, and they replace them as a matter of course when replacing a hard drive in an iBook.
I will be getting a copy of TechTool Pro 4.5.2 today and running it on the iBook to see if it detects any hardware problems.
ScottW - Nov 8, 2007 - 2:09 pm
Well, if you put the original HD back into the system, does the failing drive have the same issues? It is possible that you during the installation, that something got zapped by static electricity or for whatever reason created a short somewhere. If you don't hear the drive spinning up, then you really should take it in to have someone look at it. Of course, I realize your trying to save money by not doing that and doing it all yourself.
I don't typically like recommending that someone take their computer into the shop to get it looked at, unless it really is the only solution, and I feel that, you might be at that point.
But, if your old drive still spins up on the ribbon, then you can rule out the ribbon. I did read about some drives having incompatibility issues with the iBook, but Western Digital and others where mentioned, not Seagate. Its been awhile since I had my hands on a internal 2.5 drive, does it have PINS for selecting whether it is master/slave or auto on it? Sometimes if those are configured right, it will not show up... but will typically spin up though. So probably not a source of your problem at this point.
Scott
I don't typically like recommending that someone take their computer into the shop to get it looked at, unless it really is the only solution, and I feel that, you might be at that point.
But, if your old drive still spins up on the ribbon, then you can rule out the ribbon. I did read about some drives having incompatibility issues with the iBook, but Western Digital and others where mentioned, not Seagate. Its been awhile since I had my hands on a internal 2.5 drive, does it have PINS for selecting whether it is master/slave or auto on it? Sometimes if those are configured right, it will not show up... but will typically spin up though. So probably not a source of your problem at this point.
Scott
longston - Nov 8, 2007 - 3:12 pm
Unfortunately, Scott, I don't have the original failed Hitachi drive. I had my Mac tech toss it in his recycling bin after he courtesy tested and formatted the new Seagate drive for me.
As for zapped, anything is possible, but I work with an anti static strap on and in a bare minimum static environment.
When I did the upgrades, I not only replaced the RAM along with the optical and storage drives, I also replaced the display bezel and the touchpad/palmrest.
Replacing the freakin' display bezel on this iBook requires a complete disassembly of the whole display and frame, so I had this thing completely apart.
I actually had some fit problems with the new bezel. It seems that the bezel and clutch cover are not interchangeable, but a matched set, so it went together and was then disassembled a couple of times for both the display and, after it didn't work, for the hard drive too.
I expected if there was going to be a problem, it would be with the display itself, the reed switches, inverter board, microphone, or Airport antenna because all of that is so delicate. Frankly, I was amazed and relieved to see that everything involved in those areas works so flawlessly.
In fact, the whole computer works perfectly. The new optical drive, the external 80Gb USB drive (Seagate FreeAgent Go), the external Samsung 160Gb firewire all show up in both System Profiler and Disk Utility and work perfectly. The iBook boots from the installer disk, and from the OS on the external firewire. It just doesn't know the internal hard drive is there.
If I had the bucks, I'd probably have already sent this to the shop right away, but they charge about $100.00 per hour, and don't credit diagnostic time against repair time like some do.
Also, I've had Apple computers I've worked on since before the Mac came out in 1984 (I still have a working Apple III in my garage), and haven't found a problem I couldn't fix myself with some advice along with the right tools and software utilities. It's really a matter of spending Vs investing. I could spend money on repairs, or invest time in learning how to do the repairs and money in acquiring the tools to be able to do those repairs myself.
Besides, the last time someone convinced me I had a bad logic board, I replaced it with a new one only to find I had the same problem. Closer inspection (and playing the start up sound through the phone to my local shop) uncovered that it was a . . . (are you ready? Drum roll please,) pinched ribbon cable. Hey, anyone need a perfectly good logic board for a 400Mhz G4 desktop?
Seagate tells me the drive is compatible with the iBook. The pins on the drive do allow for master/slave configuration, but the iBook doesn't. It's either selected elsewhere (probably on the logic board), or simply not relative because the optical and hard storage drives are on separate buses, and don't usually have additional drives added to them as they don't have room internally for that kind of expansion. One drive on a bus = no conflict & no need for knowing who the master is.
Just as you say though, if it isn't getting power, the master/slave selection isn't the cause of that...
It's either a bad ribbon cable, or a bad logic board. If it were easy to test the ribbon connector, I'd know for sure.
As for zapped, anything is possible, but I work with an anti static strap on and in a bare minimum static environment.
When I did the upgrades, I not only replaced the RAM along with the optical and storage drives, I also replaced the display bezel and the touchpad/palmrest.
Replacing the freakin' display bezel on this iBook requires a complete disassembly of the whole display and frame, so I had this thing completely apart.
I actually had some fit problems with the new bezel. It seems that the bezel and clutch cover are not interchangeable, but a matched set, so it went together and was then disassembled a couple of times for both the display and, after it didn't work, for the hard drive too.
I expected if there was going to be a problem, it would be with the display itself, the reed switches, inverter board, microphone, or Airport antenna because all of that is so delicate. Frankly, I was amazed and relieved to see that everything involved in those areas works so flawlessly.
In fact, the whole computer works perfectly. The new optical drive, the external 80Gb USB drive (Seagate FreeAgent Go), the external Samsung 160Gb firewire all show up in both System Profiler and Disk Utility and work perfectly. The iBook boots from the installer disk, and from the OS on the external firewire. It just doesn't know the internal hard drive is there.
If I had the bucks, I'd probably have already sent this to the shop right away, but they charge about $100.00 per hour, and don't credit diagnostic time against repair time like some do.
Also, I've had Apple computers I've worked on since before the Mac came out in 1984 (I still have a working Apple III in my garage), and haven't found a problem I couldn't fix myself with some advice along with the right tools and software utilities. It's really a matter of spending Vs investing. I could spend money on repairs, or invest time in learning how to do the repairs and money in acquiring the tools to be able to do those repairs myself.
Besides, the last time someone convinced me I had a bad logic board, I replaced it with a new one only to find I had the same problem. Closer inspection (and playing the start up sound through the phone to my local shop) uncovered that it was a . . . (are you ready? Drum roll please,) pinched ribbon cable. Hey, anyone need a perfectly good logic board for a 400Mhz G4 desktop?
Seagate tells me the drive is compatible with the iBook. The pins on the drive do allow for master/slave configuration, but the iBook doesn't. It's either selected elsewhere (probably on the logic board), or simply not relative because the optical and hard storage drives are on separate buses, and don't usually have additional drives added to them as they don't have room internally for that kind of expansion. One drive on a bus = no conflict & no need for knowing who the master is.
Just as you say though, if it isn't getting power, the master/slave selection isn't the cause of that...
It's either a bad ribbon cable, or a bad logic board. If it were easy to test the ribbon connector, I'd know for sure.
ScottW - Nov 8, 2007 - 8:54 pm
Sounds like you have done a lot with the iBook.
If I were in your shoes, and again, I don't know all that you have done in troubleshooting, but I would start pulling things out. For example, pull out the new ram and put in the old ram, unhook the CD drive from its connector, see if that works. Maybe its a conflict with the new CD drive?
I have worked on systems since my first Apple IIGS, and I don't mind tinkering with things, although, my ability and patience to tinker has been significantly reduced since kids came along. I had an iBook that I had to sell that had a broken lid because I just didn't want to miss with trying to get it all fixed up. Looked way to tedious for my big thumbs.
You might try posting your question on the message board and see if you get any bites or suggestions. Typically for things like this, you will need a broader audience than just the techs that are viewing questions at a given moment in time.
Wish I could be of more help on this issue for you. But, like you said, you really need another ribbon to give it a try. If I could upload one for you, I'd do it, so you could download it.
Scott
If I were in your shoes, and again, I don't know all that you have done in troubleshooting, but I would start pulling things out. For example, pull out the new ram and put in the old ram, unhook the CD drive from its connector, see if that works. Maybe its a conflict with the new CD drive?
I have worked on systems since my first Apple IIGS, and I don't mind tinkering with things, although, my ability and patience to tinker has been significantly reduced since kids came along. I had an iBook that I had to sell that had a broken lid because I just didn't want to miss with trying to get it all fixed up. Looked way to tedious for my big thumbs.
You might try posting your question on the message board and see if you get any bites or suggestions. Typically for things like this, you will need a broader audience than just the techs that are viewing questions at a given moment in time.
Wish I could be of more help on this issue for you. But, like you said, you really need another ribbon to give it a try. If I could upload one for you, I'd do it, so you could download it.
Scott
longston - Nov 8, 2007 - 10:25 pm
That's a very nice sentiment, Scott. If I could post a link to a cold one, I would do so just to say thanks.
I did contact Foxboro today, and they told me that just as soon as I dismantle the iBook again so I can get their part number off of it, they will be happy to provide me with a pin-out diagram of the connector so I can test it.
I honestly think all of your suggestions are worth trying. Hell, at this point, I'm about to try Haitian voodoo, Cajun swamp witchcraft, aroma therapy, or speaking in tongues while ritual snake handling. And, like Indiana Jones, I hate snakes.
On that subject, I got my new copy of TechTool Pro V 4.5.2 today, and ran it on the iBook. It booted flawlessly, and passed every hardware test with flying colors.
Now It's gotten personal...
I did contact Foxboro today, and they told me that just as soon as I dismantle the iBook again so I can get their part number off of it, they will be happy to provide me with a pin-out diagram of the connector so I can test it.
I honestly think all of your suggestions are worth trying. Hell, at this point, I'm about to try Haitian voodoo, Cajun swamp witchcraft, aroma therapy, or speaking in tongues while ritual snake handling. And, like Indiana Jones, I hate snakes.
On that subject, I got my new copy of TechTool Pro V 4.5.2 today, and ran it on the iBook. It booted flawlessly, and passed every hardware test with flying colors.
Now It's gotten personal...
TechSupport - Dec 4, 2007 - 7:40 pm
We apologize for not being able to resolve the issue you asked of us. It is the absolute worst case scenario for us to do this. In our review of why this happens, it generally is related to either the particular issue being addressed or frequently, incomplete or incorrect information provided. We hope by moving your request to the public forums that you will be able to get a solution without leaving you empty handed.
Your ticket has been closed with our support team. Your request has just been posted to Mac OS X System & Mac Software and is available for your viewing at:
http://macosx.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296901
Again, thank you for using Macosx.com. We hope you will consider using us again in the future.
Your ticket has been closed with our support team. Your request has just been posted to Mac OS X System & Mac Software and is available for your viewing at:
http://macosx.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296901
Again, thank you for using Macosx.com. We hope you will consider using us again in the future.
longston - Dec 4, 2007 - 8:00 pm
ScottW,
I promised to let you know what the problem turned out to be, so here it is. It wasn't the cable OR the logic board...
I searched around and found a company called Hammerhead Technology (www.hammerheadtech.com) that told me they have something called a ball grid array soldering system that allows them to make component specific repairs to logic boards, and that they charge $100.00 for the repair with the return shipping included. If they can't fix it, they return it to the customer at their cost with no charges.
Here's how it went. I was directed by them to get a Laptop Kit from my local FedEx outlet ($10.00+tax), pack the computer in that box and ship it to them.
They got the box, took out the computer, and immediately began diagnosing the problem. I get an email the next day advising me that the hard drive and logic board are both working fine, but they had to install the OS to get it to work. Final charge with return shipping to me = $35.00.
Now I'm a virtual character in a Tex Avery cartoon. My head's spinning around, there's drool flying every which way, and I end up with my mouth saying hammana, hanmmana, huh? I really don't get it, so I call them up to get the inside scoop, and I'm advised that the hard drive just needed to have the proper firmware installed in order to be recognized by the proprietary Apple logic board. HUH? What the hell did they just tell me? I've replaced Apple logo hard drives with other non-Apple drives for years, and only had to format them. This is the FIRST I've ever heard of this.
It seems that the drive was some proprietary unit that was specifically designed for a particular application that simply did not include being used in this Apple laptop. And, because I bought the drive on ebaY, I have no idea what specific application that was.
I'm going to address that issue with Seagate tomorrow, and find out what happened here.
I promised to let you know what the problem turned out to be, so here it is. It wasn't the cable OR the logic board...
I searched around and found a company called Hammerhead Technology (www.hammerheadtech.com) that told me they have something called a ball grid array soldering system that allows them to make component specific repairs to logic boards, and that they charge $100.00 for the repair with the return shipping included. If they can't fix it, they return it to the customer at their cost with no charges.
Here's how it went. I was directed by them to get a Laptop Kit from my local FedEx outlet ($10.00+tax), pack the computer in that box and ship it to them.
They got the box, took out the computer, and immediately began diagnosing the problem. I get an email the next day advising me that the hard drive and logic board are both working fine, but they had to install the OS to get it to work. Final charge with return shipping to me = $35.00.
Now I'm a virtual character in a Tex Avery cartoon. My head's spinning around, there's drool flying every which way, and I end up with my mouth saying hammana, hanmmana, huh? I really don't get it, so I call them up to get the inside scoop, and I'm advised that the hard drive just needed to have the proper firmware installed in order to be recognized by the proprietary Apple logic board. HUH? What the hell did they just tell me? I've replaced Apple logo hard drives with other non-Apple drives for years, and only had to format them. This is the FIRST I've ever heard of this.
It seems that the drive was some proprietary unit that was specifically designed for a particular application that simply did not include being used in this Apple laptop. And, because I bought the drive on ebaY, I have no idea what specific application that was.
I'm going to address that issue with Seagate tomorrow, and find out what happened here.
longston - Dec 6, 2007 - 9:58 pm
I called the ebaY seller I bought the hard drive from and was informed that he purchased a quantity of those drives from a seller at a computer show and sale with the intention of selling them on ebaY, and that he had no calls from anyone (except me) about any issues with those drives.
I just got my iBook G4 back today, and it works just like it's supposed to! After I accessed the serial number for the hard drive via system profiler, I talked to Seagate Customer Service and was informed that the drive was originally sold to Circuit City as a retail product, and there was no proprietary firmware on it at that time. What happened to the drive after that is anyone's guess, but my iBook G4 simply wouldn't "see" it in order to allow me to format it, install the OS, or access it vis the system profiler or disk utility until Hammerhead repaired it.
There are Mac techs that tried to help me with this all standing around totally confused and amazed...
I just got my iBook G4 back today, and it works just like it's supposed to! After I accessed the serial number for the hard drive via system profiler, I talked to Seagate Customer Service and was informed that the drive was originally sold to Circuit City as a retail product, and there was no proprietary firmware on it at that time. What happened to the drive after that is anyone's guess, but my iBook G4 simply wouldn't "see" it in order to allow me to format it, install the OS, or access it vis the system profiler or disk utility until Hammerhead repaired it.
There are Mac techs that tried to help me with this all standing around totally confused and amazed...
longston - Dec 7, 2007 - 11:09 pm
longston - Dec 8, 2007 - 12:41 pm
So, is this area a secure part of "My Account", or is it open for the techs that respond here to share with the membership on the forums without my permission?
IF THIS IS YOUR QUESTION AND YOU WISH TO RESPOND, LOGIN HERE FIRST.
