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TICKET ARCHIVE -> I need to learn about B&W Power Mac G3

alfred_bowman - Sep 9, 2007 - 5:42 pm

I now have an old B&W Power Mac G3. I'm preparing it for a Mac graphics artist whose iBook G3 has an inoperable screen. He tells me that he can hear the hard drive spinning.

I am an old Windows PC user (16 years) who knows little about the practical aspects of the Mac. (BTW, I intend to buy a new Mac for myself once I have seen what is announced at MacWorld San Francisco in January. I simply cannot stand Windows any longer.)

Right now I have a few basic questions about this Power Mac.

1. It has two display adapters. The short bus slot has an ATI Rage 128 GL-based card (ATY-Rage128y.) A normal PCI slot holds an ATI 3D Rage Pro AGP 2X-based card with a TI video chip on it (ATY,NexusGA.) I wonder which card is faster. Can any one help me with this?

2. One PC 100 memory slot is open. Would this Mac be able to use a generic (e.g. PC) DIMM?

3. There is an additional PCI card that has me stumped. It has an Adaptec chip on it. The outside of the card has a female connector with 15 holes. There is a male connector at the top of the card. It is 2.75" wide and holds 50 pins. Can someone tell me what this card does?

4. It seems that my friend's iBook may be operable. If it is, could the Power Mac access the iBook's hard drive (and optical drive) over a Firewire cable?

5. The print on the Power Mac'sIDE controller chip is too small for me to read, even with my magnifying glass. Since there is no sign of a second hard drive connector, I have to assume that this Power Mac has a Rev. 1 system board. I have read that Rev. 1 boards may have problems with their IDE controllers. I think I should leave its 12 GB hard drive in place since it is working. However, does anyone know of
larger hard drives that work with this system board?

Currently, the Mac is running OS 9.1. My friend can load Panther.

Serenak - Sep 9, 2007 - 7:04 pm

Hello Alfred,

thanks for choosing to use macosx.com and I hope to be able to help you a bit here... though I cannot answer all of your questions so after I have heard back from you I may have to throw the questions back out to the other techs...

Anyway let us start with what I can say to you...

First off if you need to know anything about the specs of any Mac ever built go to http://mactracker.dreamhosters.com/ and download the excellent free tool Mactracker (available for Windows too )

OK next - as far as I am aware the AGP 2x card is by default faster - also the Rage 128 GL is the card that shipped with the B&W I believe - check MacTracker for the full spec so the later card was no doubt added later to improve performance - btw you can use 2 displays with this set up - your friend could make the faster card the main display and put all his palettes and toolboxes on a small monitor running off the slower card (or put his main work on one and the IM, Email, etc on the other...)

PC 100 RAM is PC100 RAM - the type must match of course... (DDR, EDR, etc etc.) but it is not "Mac" or "PC" RAM like it was in some of the much earlier models... (BTW you can put PC133 in too - it will only run as if it was PC100 but sometimes you can get hold of that out of a breaker or something or maybe get it cheaper than the older PC100). FWIW I have frequently pulled RAM from old Macs and PCs and transplanted it to whatever I had that was the best candidate to make it for a few more years...

The Adeptec card... I can almost certainly say that this is a SCSI card... Apple deprecated SCSI after the "beige" G3s... but almost every B&W G3 and many graphite G4s have a scsi card fitted (well those sold to the heavier "prosumer/professional" users) in order to support the sort of older (and not cheap) scsi peripherals that were prevalent at the time (scanners, external HDs, MO drives, etc etc.) You have to understand that while SCSI was relatively rare in the Windows world it was a very mainstream technology in the Mac world pre USB as it was standard issue to all Macs, and while usb peripherals proliferated pretty fast a lot of Mac users had a big investment in SCSI peripherals.

In theory FW allows "Target Disk mode" in which you start the Mac holding down the T key so it will mount on another FW enabled Mac as a remote HD (there are some issues with early FW equipped Macs which will prevent this working correctly if trying to mount the early Mac from a newer one... but I think not the reverse...) So you can probably boot the iBook into Target and mount the HD as if it was attached to the G3... but you will not have access to the iBook CD/DVD...

Next and far more important - the G3 needs as much RAM as you can muster and should be upgraded to at the very least 10.2 or preferably 10.3 before you start messing about trying to connect them because it will make life 100x easier I assure you. Also you may be able to simply plug the two together with an ethernet cable and create a Mac to Mac connection that way...

(also FWIW your friend should be able to connect an external monitor to the iBook with the little adapter that came with it - which is probably easier than some other things you might want to try )

Some of the earlier Macs are limited to the size of HDD partition they can access - but I can't recall the exact size off hand - check mactracker...

If the Mac has FW you would probably be better to consider an external FW drive or to rip out the SCSI card and bung in a USB 2.x card to get access to the wide range of very accessibly priced USB based external HDDs

Hope that is some help to you

If you need more help come back to me - if I can't assist more I can throw the question back out to other techs...

Simon

earthsaver - Sep 9, 2007 - 7:10 pm

1. Not sure why a Rage Pro would have been added, because it appears the B&W shipped with the better Rage 128.

2. Generally, yes. However, I recommend checking with Other World Computing for upgrades designed for that system. Not bad prices, anyway. System supports up to 1 GB RAM.

3. You should be able to figure out what the extra PCI card is in Apple System Profiler (Apple menu).

4. Yes. Activate FireWire Target Disk Mode by holding T on startup of the iBook until the FireWire logo appears on the screen.

5. B&W supports up to 128 GB per drive on its ATA/33 (ATA-4) bus. More info about hard disk support and other specs at Every Mac.

At OWC, you'll also find hard disk upgrades, including a replacement PCI hard disk controller supporting larger hard disks, and a couple possibly worthwhile processor upgrades that would make the system more usable with OS X.

What else?

- Ben

alfred_bowman - Sep 11, 2007 - 8:12 pm

Thank you both for helping me. I really appreciate it.

I have a few more issues.

The Mac graphic artist is a heavy user of Photoshop. I don't think the Power Mac's current configuration will meet his needs well enough.

It needs:

1. USB 2.0 PCI card
2. Larger hard drive
3. DVD+/-RW optical drive (external)
4. More RAM

I'm wondering how "standardized" this Mac is. I know it uses generic RAM DIMMS (up to 1 GB). But will it be able to use generic items for 1 and 3 above, or will Mac-specific parts be required? Concerning the hard drive, I've read comments that the IDE controller on Rev. 1
system boards is flawed and has caused many people serious problems.

That makes me think that an external USB hard drive might be a better choice. Am I reading too much into these comments? I just don't want to buy a drive and find that it doesn't work.

I have one concern with the external optical drive. I will deliver the Mac with OS 9.1 installed on the internal drive. Will my friend be able to install Panther from the external drive? If this is a problem, could I remove the optical drive from the iBook's case and install it in the Mac's case? (I'll make sure that it is an IDE drive, not
SATA.)

I also would like to install a 500 MHz G4 accelerator. In the past I have read that these accelerators have had compatibility problems. My friend will use Photoshop, Illustrator, Freehand, and Quark Express. I worry that these apps, and Panther itself, may be finicky about
hardware. I would greatly appreciate any thoughts you might have about this.

Alfred Bowman

earthsaver - Sep 11, 2007 - 8:45 pm

First, I will stop you in your tracks and suggest that this B&W PowerMac G3, even upgraded to a G4, might not be suitable for your friend due solely to its RAM limitation.

If you stick with it… Since you have three PCI slots to work with, assuming you stick to one graphics card (which perhaps you'd upgrade if you can find a better one), I'd use one for USB 2.0 and one for a replacement IDE controller, as I noted before.

I think standard parts will work once OS X is installed. Booting to the OS X disc will be step one after the hand-off, because OS 9 may not recognize the new optical drive without Mac-specific drivers. I'm not sure about this overall, and would recommend consulting with experts as at OWC. I would also recommend maximizing processor speed if you're sticking to the 1 GB RAM max. Check XLR8 Your Mac for important info on CPU upgrades.

Also, you're going to want an upgraded graphics card for sure, for all those pro apps, being limited in standard RAM. And I'd recommend FireWire for external drives over USB. Thought USB 2.0 is technically faster than FireWire 400, the latter tends to transfer faster on Macs.

More info on the IDE controller issue and on the B&W G3 in general.

After all is said and done, is this upgrade process still worthwhile, or are you better off scrapping the project and getting a better equipped pre-owned Mac instead?

alfred_bowman - Sep 12, 2007 - 10:09 pm

Thank you once again.

I have altered my enhancement plan. Somehow, I failed to note in your prior message the reference to an IDE controller PCI card. This is the way for me to go. Should I look for a card based on the same chip as is on the Rev. 2 system board or will any card do?

I found great deal on an 80 GB 7200 RPM hard drive on the Internet. However, it uses the ATA100 connection. Do you know if this drive would work in the Mac under Panther? Reduced performance would be OK.

I also found a 1 GHZ G3 accelerator on the Net. Would the Mac be able to use it? I got the impression that is an IBM chip rather than a daughter card, though I could easily be wrong.

I found deal on the Net for an internal DVD+/-RW with DL capability. My friend will be able to back up his files (which I believe he hasn't ever done before) efficiently.

I will fill the RAM to 1 GB.

The cost will be more consistent with my budget.

Do you see a show stopper in the above?

earthsaver - Sep 12, 2007 - 11:50 pm

I still recommend browsing for upgrades from Other World Computing for assurance of compatibility. Perhaps you missed the link the first time around. This covers all bases: optical drive, memory, processor, IDE controller, and more.

ATA 100 is fine. OS is not an issue. New controller will make the difference. I'd probably get the $150 500 MHz G4 over the $140 1 GHz G3. $37 for a DL SuperDrive is quite a deal, recalling how the first optical SuperDrive was a $500 upgrade in the PowerMacs of that day.

alfred_bowman - Sep 13, 2007 - 5:54 am

Thank you for all of your help. I greatly appreciate the time and effort that you have put into this matter. It has been very valuable. I now have a clear direction and plan.

Does macosx.com accept donations. I would like to make one.

earthsaver - Sep 13, 2007 - 7:10 am

Glad to hear that. You'll see Contribution links on the Site Info page. Thanks!

- Ben

TechSupport - Sep 19, 2007 - 1:00 pm

We apologize for not being able to resolve the issue you asked of us. It is the absolute worst case scenario for us to do this. In our review of why this happens, it generally is related to either the particular issue being addressed or frequently, incomplete or incorrect information provided. We hope by moving your request to the public forums that you will be able to get a solution without leaving you empty handed.

Your ticket has been closed with our support team. Your request has just been posted to Mac OS X System & Mac Software and is available for your viewing at:

http://macosx.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295534

Again, thank you for using Macosx.com. We hope you will consider using us again in the future.

alfred_bowman - Sep 19, 2007 - 1:09 pm

Hi again.

I was doing some research into G4 vs G3 accelerators for the Power Mac. Somehow, I found a forum, which I haven't been able to find again, with a long thread consisting posts from Power Mac G3 users whose G4 accelerators wouldn't work. As I recall, these posters were using Tiger. Nobody seemed to have an answer. However, the final post stated that an update was needed; specifically, the BWG4 Enabler with an
.hqx extension. I downloaded and saved the file on my PC.

This left me with some questions.

1. Would this issue and update apply to OS 9.1 or Panther?

2. If would apply, could it be installed on the MAC under 9.1 or Panther prior to installing the accelerator? If not, would I be able to boot to the G3 and apply the update?. If neither approach would work, is there any kind of alternative? Might there be a similar issue with a 1 GHz G3?

3 I have decided to buy a new external DVD+/-RW dual layer optical drive for the Mac. Would OS 9.1 and/or Panther have a problem with it? If so, is there an update for the drive? Without a DVD drive, it won't be possible to install Panther from its installation DVD. BTW, the posts talked of "flashing" something. Is it the ROM? I have no idea how to flash the Mac.

I will greatly appreciate your assistance.