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TICKET ARCHIVE -> Internet disconnect freezes system

mr. snow bunny - Oct 23, 2007 - 11:48 pm

Hi. Thanks for your help. My household has two PowerBook G4s: a 14-inch and a 17-inch model, both between 4 and 5 years old. A while back I upgraded the operating system on both machines to version 10.4.9. Ever since the 14-inch has been having trouble with its Internet connection. Both machines connect via an airport extreme (also between 4 and 5 years old). What happens is that the 14-inch will freeze while loading a page. While frozen, though I can move the pointer around, nothing will activate (including force quit). I then wait varying amounts of time until it eventually unfreezes itself at which point I can see that it is no longer connected to the Internet. This problem has become progressively worse taking longer and longer to unfreeze; sometimes I’ve had to turn off the machine manually as it appeared it would never unfreeze. The problem has become so bad, that I now do not use this machine, because I am afraid of damaging it if I have to continually turn if off without properly shutting it down (is this a legitimate concern?).

Things I’ve tried: In the network preferences, I have made sure that Airport is first in the sequence of devices to try when connecting to the Internet. I have also contacted my Internet service provider to confirm that I have the correct DNS servers listed. None of this has worked. In any case, the other PowerBook, the 17-inch one, never has a problem. Six months ago, I did have to erase the hard drive on the 17-inch, so I imagine its file system, etc. is much more clean and concise. The now problematic 14-inch PowerBook has never needed to be erased since its original purchase. I have backed up all my files and am ready to erase its hard drive if you think that will fix the problem, but I wanted to make sure first that this would not effect the internet/airport connection on the 17-inch model. The airport extreme was originally set up with the 14-inch as the network administrator. I figured this is probably not an issue, because this machine does not need to be on for the other one to work, but I just want to make sure so I do not loose my connection on the other model. Also, if you have any other trouble shooting suggestions in lieu of erasing the hard drive, I am of course very interested and grateful.

Thanks for your time in helping with this matter.

Kind Regards,
David

Natobasso - Oct 24, 2007 - 1:08 pm

Two things to do:

Set up a Location on each computer so they aren't on 'Automatic'. Your computers take time to search for a new network when you disconnect them if you don't have Locations already set up. Go to apple menu/Locations to do this. Name it something you recognize like 'My Airport Extreme' or the like.

I've heard Tiger update 10.4.10 has some airport extreme updates built into it. Have you updated your Tiger installs to the latest version?

Also make sure one of your computers doesn't have 'internet sharing' on. This is unneccessary as both computers can connect wirelessly to the airport extreme base station.

More on the fixes for 10.4.9 in the 10.4.10 update:
http://www.macfixit.com/index.php?date=2007-06-27

Hope this helps.

mr. snow bunny - Oct 24, 2007 - 11:30 pm

Thanks so much for your suggestions! Here’s what I found:

On the problematic 14-inch, there were several defunct locations that hadn’t been used in years. I deleted these and created a new one as per your suggestion. I’m guessing since the computer was on ‘Automatic’ that it was periodically trying to connect to these various locations, finding nothing, and crashing. Anyway, seems to be working great right now. I’m going to hold my breath for another day and then close this ticket if all remains well. Here’s hoping it does, and thanks again!

Best Wishes,
David

P.S. was able to successfully upgrade to 10.4.10, something I was not able to do earlier because the computer would freeze trying to download anything of that size.

Natobasso - Oct 24, 2007 - 11:40 pm

Awesome, I'm glad that worked. Let's leave this open for a few days to make sure it's working fine.

mr. snow bunny - Oct 26, 2007 - 11:30 pm

Hi.

The 14-inch is still working tons better than before, but I have managed to duplicate the problem (computer completely freezing) on a couple occasions:

1. Before a page with lots of pictures has fully loaded, I drag the scroll bar.

a. The first time this occurred, I tried to close the window, quit Safari, force quit Safari, etc. None of this worked and actually, greatly prolonged the time it took the computer to unfreeze itself.

b. The second time this occurred, i.e. immediately after clicking on the scroll bar, I stopped everything and just waited. This time the computer unfroze itself much more quickly (in about 5 minutes as opposed to a couple of hours).

c. After the computer eventually unfreezes itself, I find that I am no longer connected to the Internet.

d. When I do the same actions on the functional 17-inch, i.e. load a page with a lot of content and start to scroll around before everything is fully loaded, the page may jump around a bit, but does not freeze. In the couple instances over the last several months, when it has frozen, I can always force quit.

2. I leave the computer with a Safari page open. When I return, 10 to 20 minutes later, the computer is frozen.

a. My hypothesis here is that the computer went to sleep and disconnected itself from the Internet, but when it reawakened, since there was a Safari page open, it got confused and froze. In this instance, I also refrained from clicking and pushing buttons frantically and again it unfroze itself within several minutes. After it unfroze, it was indeed disconnected from the Internet.

b. When I do the same thing with the 17-inch, i.e. leave the computer with a Safari page open and return some time later, I also find that it is disconnected from the Internet, however, it is not frozen and I simply reconnect.

Hope this all makes sense. I look forward to hearing from you. Have a great weekend!

Kind Regards,
David

Natobasso - Oct 27, 2007 - 11:29 am

A few things:

1. Try different browsers. Same result?
2. Repair permissions and restart
3. Turn on 'Interference Robustness' using the wireless icon in the menu bar (top right)
4. How strong is your wireless signal? All 4 bars or fewer?
5. search for 'safari' and move the .plist and .pref files you find to the desktop (make note of their locations first so you can put them back if needed). You might have a corrupt preference file on your system.
6. Does this happen in another user account on your comps?

mr. snow bunny - Oct 29, 2007 - 11:36 pm

A few things:

1. Try different browsers. Same result?

Yes.

2. Repair permissions and restart

Have done. No effect

3. Turn on 'Interference Robustness' using the wireless icon in the menu bar (top right)

Oddly, I cannot find this option on the 14-inch. On the 17-inch when I turn it on, the strength of the signal actually decreases

4. How strong is your wireless signal? All 4 bars or fewer?

Generally, it is 4, though sometimes it vacillates between 2 and 4 even though the computer is stationary.

5. search for 'safari' and move the .plist and .pref files you find to the desktop (make note of their locations first so you can put them back if needed). You might have a corrupt preference file on your system.

Found some .plist (bookmark, history, download,) in User>Library>Safari. But no .pref files. Did not move them to desk top, since same problem occurred in both Firefox and Explorer.

6. Does this happen in another user account on your comps?

I was hoping this was the magic bullet, but alas: here too – the same problem.


*** If I erase the hard drive and reload OSX, do you think this will fix the problem? If I do this, do I have to be concerned with the airport connection on the 17-inch, since the administrator for this network was originally set up from the 14-inch?

Thanks again for all of your assistance. I really appreciate it.

Kind Regards,
David

Natobasso - Oct 30, 2007 - 1:04 am

Not sure an erase and reinstall will change much unless your computers are just too fragmented.

Have you tried movnig really close to your wireless transmitter to see if the problem persists? Sounds like you have some sort of interference.

There's an app called iStumbler that may help you see what other networks might be in your area that might be disturbnig your signal.

You have password protected your router, yes?

mr. snow bunny - Oct 31, 2007 - 1:19 pm

Hi.

Sorry this has dragged on so long. I am fine about trying an erase and reinstall at this point. Probably a long shot, but since the problematic computer does not allow me to force quit when it is frozen, I am thinking there might be a software issue as well.

I think that you are right about interference, though my other computer seems to at least be able to tolerate it. Probably, I will save up for the more recent airport extreme when I get a chance. For now, moving closer to the wireless transmitter does not fix the problem. Also, neither computer comes with iStumbler, so I have not tried that yet, though perhaps I can download it?

Anyway, before I proceed with the erase and reinstall, can you tell me if there is any chance I might mess up the wireless internet connection with the computer I have that is currently working well. This has only occurred to me since the airport extreme was originally set up with the now dysfunctional computer. Anyway, just want to double check.

Thanks again for everything. Even though the problem is not yet resolved, I have learned a lot from you and am grateful.

Kind Regards,
David

Natobasso - Oct 31, 2007 - 2:37 pm

No worries at all. It's a strange problem and I'm sorry I haven't gotten the exact answer for you. Thank you for your kind words -- makes doing this worthwhile!

I'd say reinstalling os x on one computer won't affect the other one at all, unless you're Internet Sharing from that computer to the other. (system prefs/sharing)

iStumbler is a free app available here:
http://www.istumbler.net/downloads/istumbler.html

You may need to connect to your wireless transmitter through one of your comps (usually this is done through a web browser and the stock address http://192.168.1.1; or consult your user manual if it's other than a Linksys device) and make sure security is on and firewall is on, and that you aren't limiting access to only a few computers.

Check with your isp to see if they have you on DHCP and if they limit the IP's you can assign to your internet connection. This could also be the issue.

I'll keep this open, let me know what happens.

mr. snow bunny - Nov 3, 2007 - 1:59 pm

Hi there!

I erased and reinstalled os x on the 14 inch, and so far everything seems to be working swimmingly. Tomorrow, I will reload microsoft office and probably copy my old safari bookmarks. Hopefully, all will continue to work well. Thanks so much for all of your help!

Best Wishes,
David

Natobasso - Nov 4, 2007 - 11:53 pm

David, glad you're having success!

I highly recommend Firefox and its extension FoxMarks. It sets up an online account for you and no matter what computer you're on you can load and update your bookmarks. Pretty sweet!

Anyway, let me know if I should close this thread.

mr. snow bunny - Nov 5, 2007 - 4:55 pm

Hi! Thanks for the recommends. I will definitely try them out.

Anyway, you were right about the erase and reinstall not fixing the problem. It worked well for about a day and then started with the same old tired song.

Since then, I updated the firmware on the airport, and it seems to be working again, though I am still handling it somewhat gingerly (i.e. waiting for a page to fully load before doing anything else).

Do you think purchasing the new airport extreme (I've heard it's something like 200 times faster than the older models - mine is about 4 years old) could have a positive impact?

Anyway, thanks again for all of your help. I'll wait for your response and then close the thread.

Kindest Regards,
David

Natobasso - Nov 5, 2007 - 5:05 pm

As long as the troublesome computer is set up like the ones that work well, you have to surmise that it's your wireless card doing the playing up.

You might try a new card (unless your airport extreme broadcasts in the 'n' band the highest signal you'll get is 'g') and return it if the problem persists.

Make sure you set up a specific location and make sure your airport isn't limited to a certain number of ip addresses and has dhcp on.

Natobasso - Nov 5, 2007 - 5:06 pm

Did you try iStumbler app that I gave you to see which networks your laptop is seeing and how strong they are?

mr. snow bunny - Nov 6, 2007 - 10:12 am

Hi. Thanks for reminding me about iStumbler. Here’s what I’ve found:

Two networks appear – Mine and an open one (I think my neighbors).

Functional Computer:

Where I normally sit, the signal on my network hovers around 35%. As I move closer to the airport, the signal increases. When I have it right up against the airport the signal vacillates between 67% and 87%

The signal of the other open network doesn’t appear where I normally sit, but when I move into the next room (toward the airport) it registers on iStumbler at about 24%.

My network is on channel 10. The open network is on channel 1.

While monitoring my network on iStumbler, I noticed that, fairly regularly, the noise percentage on my network increases from 0% to as much as 20%. When this happens, my network channel switches to 0 and the signal % drops by about 10%. This noise periodically disrupts my signal even when the computer is in the same room as the airport. The base station to my chord-free phone is also in this room, but unplugging it does not have any impact I can discern.

Dysfunctional Computer:

This computer registers somewhat differently on iStumbler. Generally, its signal is stronger (where it is normally stationed it comes in at around 67% increasing up to 97% as it is moved closer to the airport), and it has a high noise percentage (hovering around 50%). For some reason, even with this high noise percentage, it does not switch the channel from 10 to 0 like in the above computer, though occasionally, while remaining in the same location the signal will plunge to 20% and the noise to about 8% (when the signal is at its highest near the airport, the noise does not also increase but stays around 50%).

Graphically, this computer has much more dramatic peaks and dips in iStumbler (they are quite regular, like saw teeth).

Other Details:

For some reason in the airport network options, the troublesome computer does not allow me to activate interference robustness (I can see it in light gray, but can not check it).

Using the airport admin utility I see that it is set up with the option “Share a single IP address (using DHCP and NAT). Should I chose “Share a range of IP addresses (using only DHCP”?

Thanks for hanging in there with me on this one. I look forward to your response.

Kind Regards,
David

P.S. If it comes to me trying a new wireless card, are they pretty easy to install? Thanks again!

Natobasso - Nov 6, 2007 - 10:15 am

Great info!

Definitely share using DHCP so your router can assign your good and bad computers their own ips. If you don't do this, you end up having two computers trying to share the same ip with the results you are getting.

I have a feeling you also have some sort of strong interference in your area. Any power lines or businesses around your home?

mr. snow bunny - Nov 6, 2007 - 11:29 am

Hey, I'm glad it's starting to make more sense!

I clicked on the "Share a range of IP addresses (using DHCP)" and then clicked update. A window popped up that said:

"Sharing a range of DHCP addresses requires the base station to be configured using static IP addresses. Check your configuration and try again."

It also redirected me to the internet window in the airport admin with the cursor in the line that asks for the DHCP Client ID. Is this something I get from my internet service provider? If I add this, will I then be able to share using DHCP?

Regarding interference, there are some pretty big power lines down the block.

Thanks again!

David

Natobasso - Nov 6, 2007 - 11:51 am

Those powerlines might be causing your interference.

Check with your ISP to see if they offer DHCP. If not, you should be able to set your router to allow multiple IPs. Set up one for each computer, and don't worry about turning on DHCP if your ISP doesn't allow it.