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TICKET ARCHIVE -> Mail IMAP nightmare

digital-nd - Oct 16, 2006 - 10:07 am

macosx.com Community,

I'm currently transitioning from a PC and I was using Outlook Express for email. I started using one of my IMAP accounts in Mail on my new Mac. I had the 'Automatically synchronize changed mailboxes' option checked under 'Advanced' for this account.

Images are here: http://picasaweb.google.com/john.margaritis/MailAppIMAP

I'm not sure why but for some reason Mail downloaded my Sent Items and removed them from my IMAP server. It's odd because the messages showed up in the 'Sent Items' sub-folder of the newly created IMAP account in Mail (see images) in the same manner they do in any other mail client that I've worked with using IMAP, and not the local 'Sent Items' folder of Mail.

I realized what had happened while checking webmail for the IMAP account in question when I was out of town -- all my Sent Items were gone on the server. I figured the solution was to move my 'Sent Items' to a local folder in the Mac Mail client with the network cable unplugged (with the intention of later restoring these messages back to IMAP server)...

... well that would have been swell because they were all there before I prematurely and accidentally reconnected the network cable to the Mac; the Mail client resync'd with my IMAP server and 'poof', all my Sent Items that were in the IMAP Sent Items mailbox (folder) in Mail vanished instantly!

I'm new to the Mac. My question is: is there any place I can look to find these messages locally; a store folder etc? Is there a restore process in Tiger I can use, or is it time to contact my IMAP host to ask for a backup of my mailbox?

I'm really not sure why this happened but I'm pretty pissed right now. I've learned (painfully) through this experience that Mail handles IMAP differently than Outlook, OE and Thunderbird. IMAP in OE wasn't great but it never pulled this kind of stunt on me.

I'm running X.4.8.


Thank you,

John

vinko - Oct 17, 2006 - 3:38 am

Dear John,

My name is Vinko and I will attempt to assist you.

First of all sorry to hear of your lost email.

There is no way to recover the lost emails.

A few things you need to double check in your IMAP account within Mail.

Go to the Mail's Preferences and the Account pane. Select the IMAP account in question and then click on the "Mailbox Behaviors" tab.

You should ensure that you have "Store sent messages on the server" checked.

Now back to your "Sent Folder", you really should not be moving them around manually. What you should do if you see any folder in the Mailbox panel that you don't think should be there is to select the folder in question and then assign the folder to a particular folder function using the "Use This Mailbox for" menu item in the Mailbox menu.

One thing Apple should not have done is to call these items "mailbox" as they are not really mailboxes in the sense of different email accounts. But they are physically separate Mail file format on your hard drive.

You should not be manipulating the content of these file outside of the Mail application either.

Unfortunately, from what you had described, your problem was the result of a user error and not the Mail application.

I know this is not what you wanted to hear, but I hope this will help prevent similar problems in the future.

-- Vinko

Thank you for using MacOSX.Com's free Mac support.

digital-nd - Oct 17, 2006 - 4:01 am

Thank you for you response Vinko,

I did not manipulate the folder/mailbox contents or settings within the Mail client in any way. I also did not move anything around manually either. I have plenty of experience with IMAP (otherwise, I wouldn't have posted here).

'Store Sent Items on server' was checked as it was for my other IMAP root folders (Drafts, Deleted).

You have assumed the error was caused by me without asking more questions.

John

vinko - Oct 17, 2006 - 4:46 am

Dear John,

Apologize for my assumptions.

You said that

... I figured the solution was to move my 'Sent Items' to a local folder in the Mac Mail client with the network cable unplugged

I figured you mean you moved your "Sent Items" folder to a local folder (stored on your Mac). That is what I meant by not manipulating the folders (aka. Mailboxes) manually.

Have you checked the settings of the "Delete sent messages when:" and "Permanently erase deleted messages when:" settings?

Base on your desired behaviour:
- "Delete sent messages when:" should be set to "Never"
- "Permanently erase deleted messages when:" can be set to "Quitting Mail", but that will depend on how your habits with Mail and whether you quit the application often.

I hope this helps.

-- Vinko

digital-nd - Oct 17, 2006 - 4:49 am

> well that would have been swell because they were all
> there before I prematurely and accidentally reconnected
> the network cable to the Mac; the Mail client resync'd
> with my IMAP server and 'poof', all my Sent Items that
> were in the IMAP Sent Items mailbox (folder) in Mail
> vanished instantly!

The fact that the messages (the full messages, not headers) were there in the IMAP Sent folder and no longer on my IMAP server says Mail was storing them locally.

I get that and that's why I'm stumped... becuase I never unchecked the settings that have to do with that; the default is to store on the IMAP server for the root IMAP folders.

It has to be the 'Automatically synchronize changed mailboxes' option I checked under 'Advanced' that caused this problem, though I can't understand why based on this feature's name. If memory serves it was after checking this option that a second 'Sent Items' and 'Deleted Items' folder popped up in Mail and on the server, i.e. I did not create these manually.

Anyway, I've learned my lesson. I'm not going to play with the advanced synchronize feature anymore.

John

vinko - Oct 17, 2006 - 5:29 am

Dear John,

When you say

The fact that the messages (the full messages, not headers) were there in the IMAP Sent folder and no longer on my IMAP server says Mail was storing them locally.

That does not mean that the messages were stored locally.

The only time when messages are stored locally is when you move them from those special items (Inbox, Sent, Trash, Junk) to a folder (aka. Mailboxes) you create yourself.

Also, when you check the "Automatically synchronize changed mailboxes" option you also need to set the "IMAP Path Prefix". In most cases this value should be "INBOX".

Regards,

-- Vinko

digital-nd - Oct 17, 2006 - 6:55 am

Vinko wrote:
I figured you mean you moved your "Sent Items" folder to a
local folder (stored on your Mac). That is what I meant by
not manipulating the folders (aka. Mailboxes) manually.

*********************************************************

Hi Vinko,

I should've been more clear. When I realized what had happened, my intention was to manually copy the files over to a local folder while 'unplugged' to prevent the possiblity of losing my 'Sent Items' (upon Mail resynchronizing when plugging back in). Because the messages showed up in the IMAP Sent Items in Mail but not in the Sent Items on the IMAP server, I knew this was the safe thing to do (just in case).

This would've been the solution to recover the messages, but I never got around to doing this. Since the full messages were there while physically disconnected from the Internet, I intended to move them to a local store with the cable unplugged...

... but I got sidetracked doing other things and plugged back in (to use the web) before I had moved the messages to a local folder. Of course, Mail then resync'd and I lost my Sent Items (that were previously showing in the IMAP Sent Items in Mail).

So the error was a combination of my unfamiliarity with how Mail handles IMAP as a result of the 'advanced mailbox sync' feature and foolishly plugging in my network cable before I had backed up the Sent Items data to a local store. It wasn't that much data (~ 1.5 months worth) so it's not the end of the world. Live and learn!

Do you have a better idea about the 'Automatically synchronize changed mailboxes' function than I do, or what its specific purpose is? I have not seen such a function in other IMAP able email clients.

Thank you for your effort, I appreciate it.

John

vinko - Oct 17, 2006 - 8:38 am

Dear John,

Thank you for the clarification.

I believe the "Automatically synchronized changed mailboxes" function is suppose to initiate and maintain the synchronization between what is in Mail and what is on the IMAP server.

I know that the "IMAP Path Prefix" is an important value but I cannot remember why or where I read this. The value may be ISP specific depending on how they configured their mail server.

In either case the options including that of the "Automatically synchronized changed mailboxes" was marked by Apple as options that should consult with the ISP (System Administrator) before changing. So I suppose they are mail server configuration dependent.

I hope this helps.

-- Vinko

digital-nd - Oct 17, 2006 - 9:05 am

Vinko wrote:
When you say:
The fact that the messages (the full messages, not headers) were there in the IMAP Sent folder and no longer on my IMAP server says Mail was storing them locally.

That does not mean that the messages were stored locally.

**********************************************************

Well yes, it shoudn't mean that at all, I know that. But how else can you explain what happened? This was just my way of explaining what I 'actually' experienced and what occured, not what Mail is 'supposed' to do. If that was the case, I wouldn't bother to use Mac Mail at all.

I am not new to IMAP; the messages were in IMAP/Sent, not in a local folder:

http://picasaweb.google.com/john.margaritis/MailAppIMAP

Also, to clarify: when I say messages stored locally, I do not mean in newly created local mailboxes (folders) in Mail. I meant local as in 'locally cached' message bodies as all IMAP systems do when messages are downloaded.

The advanced sync feature in Mail did something wierd, it created new subfolders for Sent Items and Deleted Items. When viewed via webmail, all the messages from the root Sent Items folder were no longer there but now showing up in a new Sent Items folder -- which displayed as a sub-folder under Inbox; in the Mail client, it displayed as a local new 'mailbox' called Sent Items... but, and here's the odd thing, it contained nothing.

In sum, the Mail client showed the Sent Items (with messages) in the root 'Sent Items' but on the web the messages were actually in a newly created Sent Items subfolder under Inbox (after I checked the advanced mailbox sync feature). I remember unchecking the advanced sync option again somewhere in all this mess which apparently further disturbed the situation... then Mail resync'd with the root 'Sent Items' (which now contained nothing).

Perhaps this was even further complicated by my host which uses purely Microsoft-based servers; we all know MS is rarely UNIX compliant, or to other standards except its own.

> Also, when you check the "Automatically synchronize
> changed mailboxes" option you also need to set the "IMAP > Path Prefix". In most cases this value should be "INBOX"

Mail and some other IMAP clients assumes "Inbox" if nothing is input here. Otherwise, it would not have created those new subfolders under Inbox on its own (which it did). OE on the PC is different, it will only create subfolders under Inbox if you specifically enter "Inbox". I just tested this in both.

John

vinko - Oct 17, 2006 - 9:16 am

Dear John,

If you move your cursor over those items in your Mail's IMAP account Inbox, you will see that they are suppose to reflect what is stored on the IMAP server and not something stored in your local folder (hard drive).

-- Vinko