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chri_eli - Feb 9, 2008 - 11:23 am

I have a one and a half year old Macbook, and it displayed a flashing question mark upon start-up. I assume this had something to do with installing updates on the operating system. I put the installation dvd in, but when I get to the 'Select Destination' step, there is nothing to select.

What should I do? Am I taking the right steps?

Serenak - Feb 9, 2008 - 3:13 pm

Hello Christin

Thanks for choosing macosx.com and I will to assist you as best I can.

First of all the flashing question mark is a bad thing... it means the Mac cannot find either a startup disk or a valid system (eek!)

First of all try to start the Mac holding down Apple-S, if there is any viable BSD kernel available it should boot and you can try the fsck command (type /sbin/fsck -fy at the prompt - don't worry remembering it... it is handily printed just above the prompt

If that won't work then the kernel is probably toasted or the disk is damaged such that the Mac can't find/load it.. in this case start up from the installer but after choosing your language go up into the Menu and get the Disk Utility and run both Repair Disk and Repair Permissions if possible... if the disk won't show up there or DU says it is damaged but can't be fixed then pretty much the disk is dead

In this case pretty much the only tools that can help you are Disk Warrior (which can sometimes salvage disks DU has given up on) or DataRescueII (which fixes nothing just attempts to scavenge back any and all recoverable data)

These are about $100 each so not exactly cheap - DataRescue can be downloaded as a demo that will show you if it thinks it can salvage anything before you have to pay (but it can only recover one file in demo I think). DiskWarrior doesn't have a demo... you have to just buy it and hope - though it is a brilliant app and one most serious Mac users tend to end up with eventually.

I hope you have up to date backups..

Sorry I can't be more positive at the moment but the fact the installer can't see any HDD to install onto is not good at all.

Come back and let me know how you get on and we will see what we can do then.

chri_eli - Feb 9, 2008 - 3:52 pm

Hi, thanks for getting back to me.

I started it up holding down apple-s and I typed in the command when everything came up...but I'm not really sure what I'm looking for. What should I do after I enter the command? I see something about the "root device" being read-only and it says that I should type in the command you suggested if I wanted to make modifications to files. Should I do something to shut down now? I'm sorry I'm so clueluess, I really appreciate your help.

Serenak - Feb 9, 2008 - 4:12 pm

OK sorry I was not more forthcoming

when you get the prompt type in the /sbin/fsck -fy command (this basically means File System ChecK and the -fy flags are "force and yes" (I remember it as "Oh fsck" -Fix it? Yes!)

Once you have done that hit return and wait while it says stuff like "checking catalogs" "checking crosslinked files" and you are looking for it to finish with "the disk "your disk name" appears to be OK"
if it comes back with "file modifications were made" or something similar repeat the /sbin/fsck -fy command - keep doing this till it comes back "the disk "your disk name" appears to be OK" or it is obvious that whatever is busted can't be fixed...
(BTW this is all Disk Utility does when you do "Repair Disk" but Disk Utility has a nice "friendly" face...

Once you get "appears to be OK" (or give up doing it after 5 or so goes) type shutdown -r now and hit return (Shutdown and Restart Now!)

The Mac should then restart... if you are in luck it will boot normally - if not try starting holding the T key till you see a big Firewire symbol. If you can do this it is possible that you can salvage your data using a Firewire cable and another Mac (if you have one or a friend with one who can help you out) While the Mac is in the Target Disk mode connecting it to another Mac with a firewire cable will make it appear like an external hard disk and you can hopefully copy data off it to anywhere you can find to dump it temporarily

If it won't boot and you have no way to use another Mac then you will have to rely on starting from the installer and try to get an "Archive and Install" which should preserve your user accounts and data... however you do need space on the drive for this to work - and if it fails halfway you are usually left in the unenviable position of having only "clean install" (basically wipe the disk and install a clean OS) as a last resort - and this will destroy all the data on the HDD..

Hope this moves you one step closer to reviving the Mac

chri_eli - Feb 9, 2008 - 4:15 pm

I guess I could also tell you what it eventually told me. It says, "The volume Mac OS X Install Disc 1 appears to be OK." Except I'm not sure that's what I need to know. Obviously the CD is still in the drive, and I would take it out to start in this mode, but the eject button doesn't work. I always used on screen commands...but now, sadly, I have no on screen commands that allow me to do such convenient tasks

Serenak - Feb 9, 2008 - 4:19 pm

OK

No that is not helping - we know the CD is OK

To get the disk out boot the Mac holding the mouse button down...

then try restarting with the Apple S down

chri_eli - Feb 9, 2008 - 4:28 pm

hm, it doesn't seem to be coming out..I feel like I'm taking a big step back. like, ok fine my computer is dying/dead, but can I at least have my CD? I'll keep trying...

Serenak - Feb 9, 2008 - 4:52 pm

Try booting holding the "mouse button" and "Eject" button as well - you may need to mess about with the timing to get this to work...

If you want to speed up this conversation find me on Skype as s3r3nak or msn or googletalk or AIM as serenakster@googlemail.com
or Yahoo Messenger as Serenak_1963

chri_eli - Feb 9, 2008 - 5:22 pm

good news-the disc came out. bad news- apple-s doesn't work and my computer is dead. I feel like that sex and the city girl who's life is temporarily ruined b\c of the mean face that shows up on her mac. except I don't even have a human-like form telling me how destroyed my poor innocent computer is--I just have this horrid blinking folder. a folder? I mean really. and it's not even a nice folder that all the envied elementary school children own..you know, the kind with dolphins or cats with huge eyes. it's a silhouetted manilla folder having constant seizures on my screen. with a question mark. if you showed up to your first grade class with a question mark on a manilla folder you'd have no chance of lunching with the cool lisa frank stuff.

aaanyway thanks so much for helping me out, even though ignorance might have been bliss. I wish we could end this by going to get a cup of coffee to laugh off my mac reliance, but--even if I have sort of fallen in love with you today--I don't know you. sooo I will go ahead and bid you a good night.

Serenak - Feb 9, 2008 - 5:29 pm

before you totally give up there are a few things (geeky but do able) that may be able to help...

If you boot from the Installer there is no drive to install to?

Apple S won't work...

Damn I wish I knew enough *nix to boot to Apple S with the Installer and then get that to check the internal drive... must be possible but I don't think I know the commands...

You may be able to find a Linux that can be downloaded and put onto a Live CD that will boot the Mac and reformat the HDD... this will of course destroy anything on it... but if you do that you may find that then booting from the Mac Installer the HDD shows up again... I have used this trick before in extemis....

chri_eli - Feb 9, 2008 - 6:35 pm

I am torn between only caring about my data and wanting to just get my computer back any way possible.. I really wouldn't know where to find a linux even if I did decide to give up on saving the stuff I haven't backed--although my little brother is supposed to get one of those new kid laptops with linux soon..I have no idea if that would help me.

Um.. and, sadly, I can't really respond to *nix or extemis as I am completely at a loss as to the meaning of such terms.

Serenak - Feb 9, 2008 - 6:49 pm

Sorry Christin

getting ahead of myself

*nix means any variety of unix type systems - there are a range of them but all basically the same in the guts... Mac is a Unix system right down in its heart

unfortunately I know plenty about the mac and the GUI parts... but very little except the most basics when it comes to the command line stuff... like knowing windows but knowing stuff all about DOS..

in extremis... basically latin, it means in "extreme circumstances" - that is I have used the Linux disk trick to fix something that was otherwise totally hopeless... but at the cost of killing any and all data on the disk

Serenak - Feb 9, 2008 - 7:13 pm

Christin...

You have a MacBook and that means that deep down in the hardware sense it is just the same as most PCs....

you can download a Live CD image for Kubuntu here http://www.kubuntu.org/download.php#latest

follow the instructions on how to make the CD and then boot the Mac with the CD in the same way as you would boot from a Mac installer (hold down C)

the benefit of a "Live CD" is you get a whole OS running without messing with the hard drive at all..

If this allows you to see the hard drive you may be able to salvage stuff from it - get any geeky friends you have to come help you - buy them some beer or whatever, it will be a small investment

If it can't then you may at least be able to "format" the drive and then restart using the Mac Installer... Install the Linux if you have to - I have used this trick to get back a disk that was messed up so the Mac installer just would not see it... Using Linux will format it into a "not Mac" scheme - but then the Mac installer may just see it as a blank disk that needs to be formatted

Then Mac installer will offer to "format it" back to a Mac scheme (HFS+ Journalled) and you can start over... yes you will lose whatever is on there now... but the computer will be working again

In the longer run you may want to consider replacing the hard drive in the MacBook - that is not hard to do and drives are not too expensive these days

At least please consider buying a cheap external drive that you can make a bootable backup to (I will tell you about that later... i need to go to bed now... it is late here in the UK )

Geeky friends are good to know btw - they love things like this and will often work all evening/night to fix such things just because "the computer won't beat me..." Hell that is why I do this support for free - keeps me off the streets

chri_eli - Feb 10, 2008 - 4:43 pm

ok hi again. So this morning after a little good-natured calculus I downloaded kubuntu, drove 15 minutes to get a CD, dropped off some library books, broke my car, tried to fix my car, gave up on my car, and started my computer with my new kubuntu cd. but now I have no idea what to do to look for my hard drive.

I wish I had some friends that could help me out, but I dont really. My brother is an option, but he is quite hard to get in touch with... my only other option is someone with whom I'm not exactly speaking. which is quite sad b\c he is very modestly knowledgeable about the two material things I'm most attached to: my computer and my bike. I was also quite attached to him... aanyway oh my god, my computer dies and I go ballistic and tell some helpful but random person my life story.

so basically what I'm trying to say is you're my only hope. and I would fly you over here but that's a bit more of an investment than the beer. soo do you think you could you enlighten me on how to find/find out about the death of my hard drive?

thanks
christin

chri_eli - Feb 11, 2008 - 7:10 pm

so I got sent an email today that told me I hadn't responded to macosx.com's wonderful tech... but I did... just wondering if it's showing up for anybody but me.

Serenak - Feb 11, 2008 - 7:17 pm

Sorry Christin

been a bit busy today - and being in the UK I am a bit out of phase with you...

The reminder thing is abit of a bug I think - people often get them even when they have been in the "groove"

I will try to get back to you ASAP I promise...

chri_eli - Feb 12, 2008 - 6:43 am

no problem

Serenak - Feb 13, 2008 - 5:36 pm

Christin

been pretty "Moby Dick" today but here is how it goes....

Start the Mac from the Linux CD - when it starts there should be a list of options choose either "install" or "Format Disk"

Both of these will of course destroy anything on the disk - but right now I think we are beyond worrying (if there is stuff on there you really need to try and get back come back to me BEFORE trying this)

for my money I would try to install the Linux - if it says no disk can be found than the disk is basically totally trash and you need to get a new one...

If it installs then good... shut down and start from the Mac installer and give that a go.

chri_eli - Feb 15, 2008 - 7:37 pm

Hi, sorry it's been crazy for me here too, but I thought I'd get back to you now because this weekend's going to be worse. Um, ok I don't want to try options that destroy data just yet. I'm looking at buying diskwarrior before I take your next suggestion.. I know people trying to help me don't like to hear that I have unbacked info, but that's how it is. Anyway thanks for your help, and let me know if you have any other random suggestions...
--christin

Serenak - Feb 16, 2008 - 7:55 pm

OK Christin

I am totally with you there... yes those of us who back up tend to forget that the reason we do is because we once had something like what you are now experiencing happen and that taught us that back up should be a way of life...

It happens - even to the best of us - it happened to me when my office got "blagged" (that is burgled or "burglarized" if you must) - sure I had back ups... all the macs backed up to each other in a mutual "no failure will take us all at once" strategy... never allowed for some pond scum taking ALL the Macs including the crappy old ones that were just basically serving as remote HDs for the newer ones... And yes I got burned bad - my archives were nearly due to be updated.. I lost a lot of stuff - and vowed that it would never happen again (btw my personal "back up thrice" paranoia is rooted in 20 years of working in computers (mostly Macs) and the fact that Murphy is right... if it can go wrong it will, and at the most inconvenient and damaging time - and it will take all your not backed up stuff with it...

DiskWarrior is a top tool - it isn't cheap but it is something that all long time Mac admins have in the armoury... sooner or later you end up with it - it can work wonders, but it can't resurrect dead drives. The other tool that can grab back stuff is DataRescueII but even that can't get stuff out of a mechanically failed drive.

PS you can also email me personally at serenakster@googlemail.com if you need to