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TICKET ARCHIVE -> Ownership
Chris Scheck - Jun 24, 2005 - 5:34 am
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Hi there,

Have been battling with file ownership ever since the release of Mac OS X. It's highly obnoxious for users of multiple machines/multiple users of the same files.
It may be great for private use but it certainly isn't in a professional environment.

Is there a way to tell X to ignore that ownership crap so that any file is accessible to any user?
Mac OS X.4.1 is even worse than 3.9

Cheers,
Chris
Cheryl - Jun 24, 2005 - 1:17 pm
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Chris,

My name is Cheryl and I will be assisting you.

If I understand you correctly, you wish all users to have access to other users files.

Each user has a Drop box in their Public Folder. You can have the users save their shared documents in there, then have the users change the permissions on that Public folder for any one to read and write.
This can be done by clicking once on the Public folder, go to the File Menu and select Get Info, and at the bottom of that window, click on the arrow next to details and manually change the other users to read and write. Then click on the button at the bottom Apply to enclosed items. This has to be done by the user him/her self.

You can have each user do the same to the entire home folder. They would need to go to Computer>Hard Drive>Users and click on their own home folder. But this defeats the security and privacy function of the OS.

If you are talking about programs that are installed, those should be installed in the Applications folder on the hard drive - not the applications folder within the users folder. All the programs then can be used by all users.

Keep in mind that the System folder and Library folder on the hard drive should not be touched. Any file that is removed (or added) can render the system useless.

If you want to allow other users to install programs, etc., all you need to do is allow them administer the computer. Just go to the System Preferences>Accounts. Click on the pad lock to unlock it, enter your admin password. Now click on the user's name then click on the box at the bottom Allow User to Administer this computer.

Does this help you or have I missed the question?
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Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !

Cheryl
Chris Scheck - Jun 26, 2005 - 5:11 am
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Hi there,

Thanks for your answer. It does not help, because it tells me what I already know. Besides, your suggestions do not address the fundamental problem, and do not apply to new files you copy to the Public folder (their ownership is not adapted to the Public settings).
An avid Mac OS 9.2.2 user, I am used to being able to share any folder anywhere with anyone (including myself). Mac OS X does not allow that.
One typical situation is: I create a file on one computer, then further edit it on another, then one of my colleagues edits it further. This may involve up to five different machines on a network.
With the Ownership label, this forces one to change a file's status manually, while one has to go via the Public folder, which is highly inefficient. Even Windows handles this better.
Now imagine the same scenario with plus/minus 400 files a day.
I want Mac OS X to forget about ownership altogether. A file is a file (like in Windows or Mac OS 9.2.2). It belongs to the person that last opened it. For professional use, this is how it should be.
How do I do that?

Cheers,
Chris
Cheryl - Jun 26, 2005 - 6:39 am
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Chris,

I understand your situation. Can you tell me your set up? Is this several machines using OS X with AppleShare IP or just networked to a main server?

Is there a set group of people working on one project or do all workers share on the same project?

If you use AppleShare there is a way that the Admin can set up the groups to be able to read and write.
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Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !

Cheryl
Chris Scheck - Jun 26, 2005 - 7:01 am
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Hi Cheryl,

That was quick! Thanks for your support so far.
Several machines using X, several using 9.2.2, one using Windows 98, one Mac OS 9.1.

The people working on projects tend to vary. So basically, no ownership at all would be best (even Windows 98 has problems with it). Or else, everybody needs to have access to everything, that is: all folders we choose to share (like in Mac OS 9.2.2).

We use AppleShare (with PC->Mac LAN for the Windows bridge)
Please tell me about Admin. I want to get rid of files Ownership.

Didn't they pretend Mac OS X was the best OS since sliced bread? How come it fails miserably in a professional environment?

Cheers,
Chris
Cheryl - Jun 26, 2005 - 9:05 am
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Chris,

In actuality, Mac OS X is a very good OS system, especially when it comes to security. The trick is to set it up the way it is needed within your environment.

There is an example of setting up AppleShare for multiple groups and users here:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=12476

What version of AppleShare are you using?

What I have found in my research is that each user and group should have the ability to see and make changes for each folder shared. Do not lock the folders. (uncheck can't move, rename or delete items). Have the access privileges for each shared folder set to read and write.

I found a web site that gives a good example - just scroll down about half way.
http://edtech.sandi.net/presentations/macmanager/


The only other solution is to set all the OS X machines to root user. Steps for that are here:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=106290

Once that is done, you must have all the machines log in to Root user. The Root user has total permission on all files and folders. The problem with this is that it also has permission to the system folder. If any file is played with in the System folder of OS X (or the ./Library) the machine may be rendered useless and the OS has to be re-installed.

If you find that this is not a solution for you, let me know. I will then appeal to my fellow techs to see if there is another/better solution.
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Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !

Cheryl
Chris Scheck - Jun 26, 2005 - 10:47 am
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Hi Again,

>The trick is to set it up the way it is needed within your environment.
It want it to ignore Ownership. Plain and simple. This does not address the problem.

>There is an example of setting up AppleShare for multiple groups and users here:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=12476
Yes, but it still requires manual fiddling around for each folder and file. There used to be a time when one didn't even have to think about this...

>What version of AppleShare are you using?
If you mean the extension (we go via AppleTalk directly), it's 3.9.4 on all Mac OS 9.2.2 machines.

>http://edtech.sandi.net/presentations/macmanager/
This does not apply to our setup. We don't use Apple Share.

>http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=106290
Saw that, applied it and have a question:
For files generated earlier, the "You can" option (Read only) is grayed out. I opened such a file, changed it, saved it, and had a look at the "Info" again.
The result: The owner is now called "system", while the group is called "wheel".
I can no longer change those two entries. If they mean that anybody can access the files (either on the machine itself or on their own machine), I'll settle for that and shut up.
If they mean that there are other problems ahead, the problem (Apple probably call it an "issue") is upgraded to "minor catastrophe".

Cheers,
Chris
Cheryl - Jun 26, 2005 - 12:41 pm
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Chris,

I think I stumbled on something that just might be the answer. Check out Sharepoints. http://www.hornware.com/sharepoints/

It modifies the permissions of the shared folders to allow others to read and write.

since it is OS X that is causing the permission trouble, using this on each OS X machine should correct the problem.

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Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !

Cheryl
Chris Scheck - Jun 28, 2005 - 5:24 pm
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Hi Cheryl,

I suppose Mac OS X is just not up to it. Here's a real-life scenario outside of any iTunes or other gizmos pros hardly ever used when they get paid for what they do:

File translated on a PowerBook G4 (Mac OS 9.2.2).
Transferred from PB G4 to G5 (X.3.9), edited on G5.
Wanted to copy it from a G4 1.25 (Mac OS 9.2.2).

Answer: Cannot be copied, because you do not have enough access privileges.

The owner is still PB G4 (ie the original computer).

All three computers are mine. And I'm not allowed to use my own files in the way I see fit. Surely, this is a joke, right?

I did this with SharePoint 3.5.1.

I want Mac OS 9.2.2 to run on G5 machines. Or else X.5 that finally addresses some fundamental flaws to the whole iCouldntCareLess.

Cheers,
Chris
Cheryl - Jun 28, 2005 - 5:53 pm
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Chris,

Are you copying the file to the hard drive, or just trying to open the file via file sharing?
After you were done with the edit on the G5, were you still logged into the powerbook? Log out, then try to move the file.

In file sharing, there is what you may call a bug. Only one machine can access a particular file at at time.

You had stated in a previous response that the machines are connected to a windows bridge with AppleShare.
Have the Appleshare admin disable the "Folders will inherit their privileges" option in AppleShare IP Advanced Setup.

You can run Classic on the G5. The G5 came with several CD/DVD disks. I believe it is Disk 2 that has classic installation on it. This will allow you to use OS 9 applications within OS X.

May I ask a question? What program/application are you using that keeps you using OS 9?
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Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !

Cheryl
Chris Scheck - Jun 29, 2005 - 2:44 am
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Hi there,

>Are you copying the file to the hard drive, or just trying to open the file via file sharing?
I'm trying to copy the file using my G4 (so from the G5 to the G4, but copy initiated from the G4).

>After you were done with the edit on the G5, were you still logged into the powerbook?
The PB was already off when I got to that stage.

>In file sharing, there is what you may call a bug. Only one machine can access a particular file at at time.
That is not the problem. The problem is Ownership. I want Mac OS X to ignore it, to forget it's even there.
We didn't ask for it, we don't want it, it's a pain, and -in true Microsoft fashion- it takes ages to find out how you can turn it off (though Apple seem to go one better: you can't switch it off).

>Have the Appleshare admin disable the "Folders will inherit their privileges"
You mean SharePoints, right? It's off. It's always been off.

>The G5 came with several CD/DVD disks. I believe it is Disk 2 that has classic installation on it.
Mine did not. The second DVD made lots of compliments (hence the "complimentary" files) but did not provide Mac OS 9.2.2. I had to install it via FireWire.

>What program/application are you using that keeps you using OS 9?
You want the long story? FrameMaker (Adobe) is not available for Mac OS X.
Illustrator, InDesign, Quark do not allow you to save in formats that Mac OS 9.2.2 users can open. Most software only costs money, doesn't add anything useful and more often than not removes functions that actually were useful.
The main reason, however, is that the only time we really need Mac OS X and the software for that platform (InDesign 3) is for clients that work under Windows. That's 2 clients out of 42. All others (and I mean ALL, in 11 countries) still use Illustrator 7/8/9, Quark 4, InDesign 2 and -above all- FrameMaker. It's not for us to tell them to upgrade. Especially now that we know that it only thinks (and looks) different but is more labor intensive than 9.2.2 and just too unprofessional for someone who knows then ins and outs of 9.2.2, we would be ashamed to push it.

Those clients are in the same situation as we: their machines still boot in 9.2.2. The few G5s (Mac OS X) we own happenn to be the biggest troublemakers: extremely slow Ethernet network recognition, file Ownership that gives you the creeps, highly inefficient user interface, confusing functions (I don't remember how often I've told the Admin to forget Suitcase at startup: it is still loaded automatically), nasty browser handling that doesn't allow you you to check how a web page will look on just any machine before posting it (Mac OS X decided to substitute the fonts with its own renditions). This applies to both Safari and Internet Explorer, so it's an X flaw...

But for now, if I could just get the system to forget about file ownership, I would be more than happy. Never mind the slow and erratic Ethernet handling.
Given that it's the best system since sliced bread, some bright mind (if he/she can get his/her head out of the exquisitely important Dashboard long enough) should be able to devise a switch that disables Ownership if an adult user thinks that makes sense?

All the best,
Chris

Cheryl - Jun 29, 2005 - 6:28 am
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Chris,

I found that your problem is actually a security thing. In OS 9, you do not need to set a user. Multiple accounts is just an added option. In OS X, you must set users and permissions. (which is totally different from Windows - as you set a password on windows and anyone can still bypass it including hackers).

The problem, as I see it, is with the G5 in not allowing any other file sharing person to copy the file. What folder are you saving the edited file in? Try this on the G5:

Create a new folder to sit on the hard drive - not in any folder. Name it something other than documents or shared. Work would work. :-) Save or move a file to it.
Now click on that new folder and go to the File menu and select Get Info.
Ownership & permissions should show you as read & write and you as the owner.
Under Group change the access to Read & write and Others to read & write. Now click on Apply to enclosed items.

Now give it a try and copy it to the G4.

Do you feel comfortable with Unix and command lines? I found a way to fix the permissions manually through Terminal. I found a web page that explains ownership and permissions with instructions on how to change it.

http://homepage.mac.com/richardmacle...sic_unix_1.htm


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Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !

Cheryl
Chris Scheck - Jun 29, 2005 - 7:06 am
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Hi Cheryl,

>In OS 9, you do not need to set a user.
But I have to log on as one.

>I found a web page that explains ownership and permissions with instructions on how to change it.
Looks good and fairly comprehensible. Just one question: what's the Unix name of the entire machine (the hard disk is called G5 HD)?
I want it to ignore Ownership, or else to allow anyone who belongs to the "Off Limits" group to read, write and execute.
What's the code for that? Do you know?

Thanks so far,
Chris
Cheryl - Jun 29, 2005 - 8:44 am
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Chris,

The hard drive is signified by mount point which is ./

The instructions on that web page state to log in as Root user. This gives you access to all files and folders. To enable Root user check out this:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=106290

I do not pretend to know a lot about the Unix commands, but I get by. The command you need:

chmod 777 /Users/(name of your home folder)/(name of folder you want to change)

This is assuming you want to change permissions of a folder inside your users folder.
Each 7 indicates read/write/execute

You may want to practice this on a practice folder first, then check to see if it works.

Let me know how you do.
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Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !

Cheryl
Chris Scheck - Jun 29, 2005 - 8:53 am
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Hi again,

Thanks for the info. One last thing: will this also apply to future files copied from different machines to a G5?

Cheers,
Chris
Cheryl - Jun 29, 2005 - 9:03 am
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Chris,

I honestly can not give you a definite answer on that. As long as you use the same folder, the permissions should stick to all files.

Let me know if this works.
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Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !

Cheryl
Chris Scheck - Jun 29, 2005 - 4:58 pm
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Hi Cheryl,

Thanks for your support. I have yet to try this last possibility. All others have failed. Mac OS X is definitely the most stubborn OS I've ever seen. It out-Windows Windows (no mean feat).

Cheers,
Chris
Cheryl - Jun 29, 2005 - 6:30 pm
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Chris,

Actually I see Windows as even meaner. My husband tends to pull out hair he doesn't have with his XP.

Let me know if this works (or not).
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Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !

Cheryl

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