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TICKET ARCHIVE -> Pb G4 500
gconner - Jul 13, 2005 - 8:12 pm
After 4 yr of hard use as a desktop and laptop actively used 40-60 h per week, the pb is complaining!
it started with freezes (no mouse/kb response) now often will fail to go to initial gray screen! clearly sensitive to movement or opening and closing lid while off for transport.
Things it is not:
OS or software, HDD, ram, loose screws in cover or inside, loose or bad battery, loose plugs inside, obvious belt wear or fraying
.
Question how to troubleshoot?
it started with freezes (no mouse/kb response) now often will fail to go to initial gray screen! clearly sensitive to movement or opening and closing lid while off for transport.
Things it is not:
OS or software, HDD, ram, loose screws in cover or inside, loose or bad battery, loose plugs inside, obvious belt wear or fraying
.
Question how to troubleshoot?
Cheryl - Jul 13, 2005 - 8:34 pm
Greg,
I am curious as to how you determined that it is not the OS, software, HDD, or ram.
The first course of action is to start up the power book with the OS CD - matching the version you are running. Make sure you use the power adaptor before you start up with the CD.
If you are using OS X, do not click on the installer screen. nstead go to the Installer menu and select Disk utility.
When that opens click on the second icon at the top left, then click on Repair Disk at the bottom right.
Watch the activity screen. If it does any repairs - you will need to click on the Repair Disk button a second time after the first pass is done. The object is to make sure it finds all the problems and repairs them. You may need to hit that button a third or fourth time to get no references to repairs made.
Now click on Repair Permissions.
When that is done, quit Disk utility and restart the computer.
If it is OS 9, go to the Utilities folder and select Disk First Aid and have it scan the drive.
--------
Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !
Cheryl
I am curious as to how you determined that it is not the OS, software, HDD, or ram.
The first course of action is to start up the power book with the OS CD - matching the version you are running. Make sure you use the power adaptor before you start up with the CD.
If you are using OS X, do not click on the installer screen. nstead go to the Installer menu and select Disk utility.
When that opens click on the second icon at the top left, then click on Repair Disk at the bottom right.
Watch the activity screen. If it does any repairs - you will need to click on the Repair Disk button a second time after the first pass is done. The object is to make sure it finds all the problems and repairs them. You may need to hit that button a third or fourth time to get no references to repairs made.
Now click on Repair Permissions.
When that is done, quit Disk utility and restart the computer.
If it is OS 9, go to the Utilities folder and select Disk First Aid and have it scan the drive.
--------
Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !
Cheryl
gconner - Jul 13, 2005 - 9:14 pm
Cheryl thanks for the rapid reply
To cut to the chase I have access to a colleague's powerbook:
after all the normal stuff (permissions, disk repair, archive reinstall os, new ram) i moved the HDD to a firewire box and now boot from it on the colleague's pb and use that for daily work.
the old ram is now in the colleague's pb too and working fine (wish i had switched everyting first! though that would not be rational)
To cut to the chase I have access to a colleague's powerbook:
after all the normal stuff (permissions, disk repair, archive reinstall os, new ram) i moved the HDD to a firewire box and now boot from it on the colleague's pb and use that for daily work.
the old ram is now in the colleague's pb too and working fine (wish i had switched everyting first! though that would not be rational)
Cheryl - Jul 13, 2005 - 9:50 pm
Greg,
I still have a few questions. What version OS are you running?
Did you install the firmware update?
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75132
Did you install anything just before this began happening?
Did you drop it? (had to ask).
Does this happen with the power adaptor plugged in or not?
How old is the battery?
--------
Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !
Cheryl
I still have a few questions. What version OS are you running?
Did you install the firmware update?
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75132
Did you install anything just before this began happening?
Did you drop it? (had to ask).
Does this happen with the power adaptor plugged in or not?
How old is the battery?
--------
Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !
Cheryl
gconner - Jul 13, 2005 - 10:10 pm
OS is 10.3.9
Hardware Overview:
Machine Model: PowerBook G4
CPU Type: PowerPC G4 (11.3)
Number Of CPUs: 1
CPU Speed: 500 MHz
L2 Cache (per CPU): 1 MB
Memory: 512 MB (now only 1 stick, new)
Bus Speed: 100 MHz
Boot ROM Version: 4.1.8f5
Serial Number: QT1340HCLBW
I think the firmware was in the machine when bought.
did not install anything or drop it (actually an undented, intact case , but with some scratches argh)
this happens with the adaptor plugged in
hmmm the battery:
not an apple tm battery about 1 year old...noticed it was loose while trying to figure this out (slight clunking sound on movement of the machine)
have tightened the fit with folded paper... and reset PMU
thinking this would solve problems, did not. Never noticed the machine shut off by itself during transport and I transported home while sleeping every day. Could freezes come from a bad (internally shorting) battery?
Hardware Overview:
Machine Model: PowerBook G4
CPU Type: PowerPC G4 (11.3)
Number Of CPUs: 1
CPU Speed: 500 MHz
L2 Cache (per CPU): 1 MB
Memory: 512 MB (now only 1 stick, new)
Bus Speed: 100 MHz
Boot ROM Version: 4.1.8f5
Serial Number: QT1340HCLBW
I think the firmware was in the machine when bought.
did not install anything or drop it (actually an undented, intact case , but with some scratches argh)
this happens with the adaptor plugged in
hmmm the battery:
not an apple tm battery about 1 year old...noticed it was loose while trying to figure this out (slight clunking sound on movement of the machine)
have tightened the fit with folded paper... and reset PMU
thinking this would solve problems, did not. Never noticed the machine shut off by itself during transport and I transported home while sleeping every day. Could freezes come from a bad (internally shorting) battery?
Cheryl - Jul 14, 2005 - 8:59 am
Greg,
You should not need to shim the battery. I bet that is what is causing your problem. The battery may not be sitting in/on the connection sensors correctly.
Get a battery that is correct for your powerbook.
http://www.batteries.com/productprof...p?appid=294275
--------
Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !
Cheryl
You should not need to shim the battery. I bet that is what is causing your problem. The battery may not be sitting in/on the connection sensors correctly.
Get a battery that is correct for your powerbook.
http://www.batteries.com/productprof...p?appid=294275
--------
Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !
Cheryl
gconner - Jul 14, 2005 - 10:46 am
Cheryl
I have one here in the office and have replaced the battery with a good Apple brand battery....same problem
I have one here in the office and have replaced the battery with a good Apple brand battery....same problem
Cheryl - Jul 14, 2005 - 1:22 pm
Greg,
Your Powerbook came with a Hardware Test CD. Use that to check over everything and let me know what the report says.
I have a suspicion that you will need to take it in to an Apple Tech and have it looked over.
--------
Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !
Cheryl
Your Powerbook came with a Hardware Test CD. Use that to check over everything and let me know what the report says.
I have a suspicion that you will need to take it in to an Apple Tech and have it looked over.
--------
Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !
Cheryl
gconner - Jul 14, 2005 - 3:16 pm
Cheryl thanks for your help
I did the hardware test ...had to boot into OS 9 but everything checked out...
back to the original question is there a way to troubleshoot these types of hardware problems...
when the machine tries to start and fails I have no chime...what tests are needed to execute the chime? since the processor etc passes the hardware tests I can narrow the list of failing items further? et al.
I did the hardware test ...had to boot into OS 9 but everything checked out...
back to the original question is there a way to troubleshoot these types of hardware problems...
when the machine tries to start and fails I have no chime...what tests are needed to execute the chime? since the processor etc passes the hardware tests I can narrow the list of failing items further? et al.
Cheryl - Jul 14, 2005 - 3:54 pm
Greg,
Do you hear any beeps? Your machine is set to do a self test at startup.
The power on self-test resides in the ROM of the computer. This test runs whenever the computer is turned on after being fully shut down (the power-on self-test does not run if the computer is only restarted).
If a fault is detected during the test, you will not hear a normal startup chime. Instead, the system will beep as explained below. If you experience one of these beeps, you may call your Apple Authorized Service Provider for additional troubleshooting assistance.
1 beep = no RAM installed
2 beeps = incompatible RAM types
3 beeps = no good banks
4 beeps = no good boot images in the boot ROM (and/or bad sys config block)
5 beeps = processor is not usable
In addition to the beeps, on some computers the power LED will flash a corresponding number of times plus one. The LED will repeat the sequence after approximately a 5-second pause. The tones are only played once.
If you get nothing, it has to be checked by an Apple Tech. While the hardware test shows all is well, there is something in the powerbook that is either getting a short, or not connecting all the time. That needs an authorized tech with equipment to check out.
--------
Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !
Cheryl
Do you hear any beeps? Your machine is set to do a self test at startup.
The power on self-test resides in the ROM of the computer. This test runs whenever the computer is turned on after being fully shut down (the power-on self-test does not run if the computer is only restarted).
If a fault is detected during the test, you will not hear a normal startup chime. Instead, the system will beep as explained below. If you experience one of these beeps, you may call your Apple Authorized Service Provider for additional troubleshooting assistance.
1 beep = no RAM installed
2 beeps = incompatible RAM types
3 beeps = no good banks
4 beeps = no good boot images in the boot ROM (and/or bad sys config block)
5 beeps = processor is not usable
In addition to the beeps, on some computers the power LED will flash a corresponding number of times plus one. The LED will repeat the sequence after approximately a 5-second pause. The tones are only played once.
If you get nothing, it has to be checked by an Apple Tech. While the hardware test shows all is well, there is something in the powerbook that is either getting a short, or not connecting all the time. That needs an authorized tech with equipment to check out.
--------
Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !
Cheryl
gconner - Jul 14, 2005 - 4:09 pm
when the computer fails to start there are no beeps nor a startup chime, only the temporary (~2-5 sec) spin up and short head movement noises of the harddisk
is there no sequence of checking the machine that is public info?
are there known test points on the logic board etc.
or is all this apple secret?
Cheryl thanks for your help with this.
is there no sequence of checking the machine that is public info?
are there known test points on the logic board etc.
or is all this apple secret?
Cheryl thanks for your help with this.
Cheryl - Jul 14, 2005 - 9:43 pm
Greg,
I am sorry for the delay in answering you. I experienced a power outage here - which downed my internet connection.
There are no simple tests that I know of. You would need equipment specific to test the logic board. And that is not available to the consumer.
Was the Ram specific for your powerbook? It has to be PC100 3.3v 144 pin SO-DIMM with a minimum speed of 10ns.
All of your descriptions point to a dying logic board since you don't even get beeps.
I would take it in and ask the Apple tech if it is worth getting fixed.
--------
Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !
Cheryl
I am sorry for the delay in answering you. I experienced a power outage here - which downed my internet connection.
There are no simple tests that I know of. You would need equipment specific to test the logic board. And that is not available to the consumer.
Was the Ram specific for your powerbook? It has to be PC100 3.3v 144 pin SO-DIMM with a minimum speed of 10ns.
All of your descriptions point to a dying logic board since you don't even get beeps.
I would take it in and ask the Apple tech if it is worth getting fixed.
--------
Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !
Cheryl
gconner - Jul 14, 2005 - 10:06 pm
Thanks again for going through this with me
Cheryl - Jul 14, 2005 - 10:20 pm
Greg,
I am interested in knowing what the Apple Tech says, so please let me know.
--------
Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !
Cheryl
I am interested in knowing what the Apple Tech says, so please let me know.
--------
Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !
Cheryl
gconner - Jul 14, 2005 - 10:40 pm
Cheryl
Apple repair is so outrageously expensive I will probably try powerbookresq or some such ...any recommendations?
My experience in the apple store is not particularly encouraging that they will say more than send it in?
You know the problem has settled down some and once the machine starts I have no problem till the next startup. If I take the battery out (now the apple battery) and replace it serveral times it will eventually start...have i narrowed the problem down? does not make sense to me that a low voltage from a bad battery conenction (while plugged in to the power adaptor) would cause this symptom.
oh well I am very happy with this machine...i used the c____ out of it and it never failed me til now (well the IBM/hitachi drive did several years back) but otherwise great run.
Apple repair is so outrageously expensive I will probably try powerbookresq or some such ...any recommendations?
My experience in the apple store is not particularly encouraging that they will say more than send it in?
You know the problem has settled down some and once the machine starts I have no problem till the next startup. If I take the battery out (now the apple battery) and replace it serveral times it will eventually start...have i narrowed the problem down? does not make sense to me that a low voltage from a bad battery conenction (while plugged in to the power adaptor) would cause this symptom.
oh well I am very happy with this machine...i used the c____ out of it and it never failed me til now (well the IBM/hitachi drive did several years back) but otherwise great run.
Cheryl - Jul 14, 2005 - 11:15 pm
Greg,
You have indeed narrowed the problem. The contacts for the battery maybe dirty, especially while using a battery that does not fit correctly.
Using 91% alcohol - not rubbing alcohol - on a sponged stick - (like those small sponge paint brush) clean the contacts inside the power book and on the battery.
Once both are dry, reset the battery.
If the computer is on, turn it off.
Press and release the reset button located on the rear panel of the computer between the external video and modem ports.
Wait 5 seconds.
Press the Power button to restart the computer.
Yes, there are some techs at the Apple store that are only good for picking their nose. I am sorry that you have one by you. I have found some bad techs at CompUSA as well.
--------
Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !
Cheryl
You have indeed narrowed the problem. The contacts for the battery maybe dirty, especially while using a battery that does not fit correctly.
Using 91% alcohol - not rubbing alcohol - on a sponged stick - (like those small sponge paint brush) clean the contacts inside the power book and on the battery.
Once both are dry, reset the battery.
If the computer is on, turn it off.
Press and release the reset button located on the rear panel of the computer between the external video and modem ports.
Wait 5 seconds.
Press the Power button to restart the computer.
Yes, there are some techs at the Apple store that are only good for picking their nose. I am sorry that you have one by you. I have found some bad techs at CompUSA as well.
--------
Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !
Cheryl
gconner - Jul 15, 2005 - 7:45 pm
Cheryl
Here is todays update. Cleaned the battery contacts no difference.
Once this morning got 4 beeps (first time that happened) then later started
A colleague pointed out that PB should start with no battery if plugged in to adapter, so he was right ..."sometimes" it started with no battery.....thought maybe pram battery since it can cause weird startup problems.
opened up, unplugged the pram battery....still random not starting ....hmmm
will keep you posted. How many times can i reset the PMU before that is bad for the pmu?
Here is todays update. Cleaned the battery contacts no difference.
Once this morning got 4 beeps (first time that happened) then later started
A colleague pointed out that PB should start with no battery if plugged in to adapter, so he was right ..."sometimes" it started with no battery.....thought maybe pram battery since it can cause weird startup problems.
opened up, unplugged the pram battery....still random not starting ....hmmm
will keep you posted. How many times can i reset the PMU before that is bad for the pmu?
Cheryl - Jul 16, 2005 - 8:06 am
Greg,
First, you need to have the battery inserted in order for it to charge up. Have you calibrated the battery -
Plug the power adapter in and fully charge your computer's battery until the battery indicator lights turn off and the adapter plug ring goes from amber to green, which indicates that the battery is fully charged.
Disconnect the power adapter and use your iBook or PowerBook. When your battery gets low, you will see the low battery warning dialog on the screen. Continue to use your computer until it goes to sleep. At that point the battery has been sufficiently drained for calibration.
Connect the power adapter and leave it connected until the battery is fully charged again.
Resetting the PMU is used as a last resort in cases where a hardware failure of the power management system is suspected. If that does not correct the problem, doing more resets will not solve it either.
Do you have the correct power adaptor for your powerbook? Using one that sort of fits, is not good.
You said you got 4 beeps...
4 beeps = no good boot images in the boot ROM (and/or bad sys config block)
You have the latest firmware installed for that machine, so the next step is to have the machine checked out by an authorized Apple tech.
There is nothing more you or I can do to correct the problem.
--------
Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !
Cheryl
First, you need to have the battery inserted in order for it to charge up. Have you calibrated the battery -
Plug the power adapter in and fully charge your computer's battery until the battery indicator lights turn off and the adapter plug ring goes from amber to green, which indicates that the battery is fully charged.
Disconnect the power adapter and use your iBook or PowerBook. When your battery gets low, you will see the low battery warning dialog on the screen. Continue to use your computer until it goes to sleep. At that point the battery has been sufficiently drained for calibration.
Connect the power adapter and leave it connected until the battery is fully charged again.
Resetting the PMU is used as a last resort in cases where a hardware failure of the power management system is suspected. If that does not correct the problem, doing more resets will not solve it either.
Do you have the correct power adaptor for your powerbook? Using one that sort of fits, is not good.
You said you got 4 beeps...
4 beeps = no good boot images in the boot ROM (and/or bad sys config block)
You have the latest firmware installed for that machine, so the next step is to have the machine checked out by an authorized Apple tech.
There is nothing more you or I can do to correct the problem.
--------
Let me know if you need further assistance and thank you for using MacOSX.com !
Cheryl
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