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TICKET ARCHIVE -> switching scsi hard drives to a B&W

Phillips - Dec 27, 2006 - 8:39 pm

I have a Beige G3 which has (had) a fairly new scsi hard drive in it and it worked fine. I got a different computer a B&W G3 with the idea to take my old scsi and just put it in the B&W.
Currently running 9.2.2. I can't get it load up the system. So I transferred everything to an IDE HD but it would not boot up so I installed a new 9.2.1 and tried to change Internet settings back to old. But not worried about this stuff as you read on. (which we all know screws up Internet settings. Lost a ton of mail and all important book marks etc.. So I asked my computer guy and was told that the last hard drive had to be terminated with the cable terminated also. Got a terminated cable from him and researched the hard drive and found out that it does not have "on board termination". So I thought if I took an old scsi hard drive from another computer that was "on board" terminated put my non- "on board"in the middle and put the terminated HD on the end it would work. Wiped the old one clean and initialized(sp) it. NO GO. I took the little HD and did a quick new install of 9.2.1 and it would boot off of it as the only hard drive with the cable terminated, but it refuses to boot from the non-terminated HD.
Will I have to go get an "on board" terminated HD and transfer everything over or do you have a different idea.
Thanks
Bruce Phillips
Still have everything untouched on the Beige HD and would just as soon not mess it up screwing around with it.

Phillips - Dec 27, 2006 - 9:07 pm

I forgot to add the the small HD does not have id jumpers so it is set at the default id of 0 so I set the 9.2.2 HD at id 1.
Would I have to get a different HD with id jumpers and set the boot one to 0 and the blank one to 1. I have several old computers to tear into to see what they have for HD's if necessary.

Cheryl - Dec 28, 2006 - 7:07 am

Bruce,

When you put in a secondary hard drive in a computer, the only thing you need to do is make sure the second hard drive is set to slave, with the original drive set to master as default.

The slave/master settings are on the drive right next to the ports for the ribbon cables.
Check out this article:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=24342

If your B&W has a Zip drive, that drive is using ID 1. Here is more information about the B & W:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=58194
You can use ID 2 to 6 for the SCSI ID numbers.

Let me know if you need further assistance.

Cheryl

Phillips - Dec 28, 2006 - 7:23 am

Master/slave configuation is for ata/ide drives and what I am talking about is scsi. There is no master/slave for scsi. It does not have a internal zip drive. No ide used. Just a scsi hard drive.
Please reread my complete letter.
Thank you
Bruce

Cheryl - Dec 28, 2006 - 9:06 am

Bruce,

I had to cover all possibilities - just in case. Your explanation is a bit confusing as you talk about IDE and SCSI and different HD from different computers.

SCSI termination is tricky. In your SCSI ring, the last device needs to be terminated. Are you using Ultra Wide SCSI? You can not mix Ultra Wide with the old SCSI.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=24330

Try setting the second SCSI ID to 2, then boot up.

Try starting up the computer with the OS 9 CD. Does all the SCSI drives show up on the desktop?

Cheryl

Phillips - Dec 28, 2006 - 10:10 am

This is very confusing. As my computer guy says that as you go up everything gets touchier. With just about everything works in a Beige G3.

The computer will boot up with the OS 9 cd fine and the hard drives all show up. I am trying to connect off of the factory scsi card with a 50 pin cable. I'll try to set the HD with the OS 9 installed on an ID of 2 but I don't think it will help. At this point I'm considering just finding a used 50 pin "on board" terminated HD and installing an IDE HD and putting OS 10.3.x on it and using carboncopycloner. I can put the os 9 HD in a box and just clone it to the different internal scsi HD. This should save me the trouble of redueing all my internet settings and losing a lot of mail and bookmarks. Which always seems to happen when you try to drag and drop.
Do you think that this option will work?
This will allow me to boot from OS 9 while slowing switching everything to OS 10.3.x and I woould be able to boot into OS 10.x when needed.
I have my daughters B&W set up this way but everything was a clean install on it with no transfers.
Thanks
Bruce

Cheryl - Dec 28, 2006 - 10:56 am

Bruce,

The B&W was originally shipped with Ultra ATA drive (hence my confusion) and OS 8.5.
On the original B&W drive, install OS 9 and get the updates for it from Software Update Control Panel. Now go here:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=58374

for the firmware update needed to have OS X work smoothly and the PCI cards to work correctly. Once you have the firmware installed, give that SCSI drive a try.

Carbon Copy cloner works with OS X only. While it may copy OS 9 files, I am not sure it will copy to be bootable.

You must remember that OS 9 and OS X applications use different file protocols and some files will not work if copied over. This is true of Mail and how Mail in OS X saves emails. Your old emails from OS 9 will need to be imported to OS X.

One more thing - OS 9.2.2 is needed only if you are installing OS X on the same drive and using Classic. If you are not going to use Classic, just use OS 9.2.1

I hope I wasn't too confusing.

Cheryl

Phillips - Dec 28, 2006 - 11:25 am

First off the computer was purchased without hard drives.
Let me see if I got this right.
Install OS 9.2.1 (the install cd I have) I see in the extras file there is an B&W G3 firmware update package. Install this firmware update then try the scsi deal.
This will probably seem like a stupid question but which of the two little buttons on the front is the programmers button?
Plus the mail that you mentioned is why I want to get my 9.2.2 hard drive working fully before I go to 10.x mail to hopefully ease the transition over.
Thank you for taking the time with me.
Bruce

Cheryl - Dec 28, 2006 - 11:38 am

Bruce,

No question is a stupid question. The programer's button is the one with the arrow or triangle pointing down in the front of the tower. It is very small so you may need the tip of a pen to depress it.

The B & W has the Ultra ATA drive connection cables. This is what the motherboard/logic board is looking for (an ATA drive) for the start up. It then looks for a system folder on the remaining drives if it does not find the default drive.

Let me know how you do.

Cheryl

Phillips - Dec 28, 2006 - 1:30 pm

Might not get to it today because my daughter is flying in from the coast for the first time in a few years so first things first you know. But I was thinking here that when I installed OS 9 from with-in the B&W it would boot from it. It wouldn't boot from the HD that was installed with 9.x from with-in the Beige. Could this be the problem and also does the firmware update need to be done with a new system installed or can it be done from the install cd and does the hd with 9.2.2 need to be hooked up?

Phillips - Dec 28, 2006 - 2:35 pm

Thank you for your time. My firmware is up to date. Changed the scsi number. No difference. Right now I think that the best thing to do is PUNT. I'll just go onto e-bay and find a hard drive that's on board terminanted and see if carbon copy cloner will do the trick. If not I'll just install a new 9.2.2 and transfer over the other stuff. Pain but I have done it before. I think the way I was trying just makes a mess and I try to go by the motto of K.I.S.S.
Keep it simple stupid.
Again thank you for your time and suggestions even though didn't work still helped to go thru steps to check over.
Thanks again
Bruce

Cheryl - Dec 28, 2006 - 4:01 pm

Bruce,

Before you punt I thought of one more idea and it is a KISS.

With the old hard drive installed in the B&W, Use the OS 9 CD to perform a clean install. The old drive has the system that works with the components of the Beige and those components in the OS do not work with the B&W.

First Use CleanInstall Assistant
http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/2314

This is for OS 9 only. It will pick up your third party files from the system folder and hold them. After the Clean Install of OS 9, you then use the Clean Install assistant to put those files where they belong in the new System Folder.

The Clean Install option should be in the Options button when you begin to install OS 9 on the 'old' drive. It has been a while since I installed OS 9, so bare with my old brain.

All your files should still be there. Give that a try and see if it works.

Cheryl