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TICKET ARCHIVE -> Tiger Unexpectedly Quits
dglose - Oct 17, 2005 - 7:13 am
I have installed Mac OS Tiger on my Power Mac G4 3 weeks ago. I have been having problems with Mac OS unexpectedly quitting. Where the background will go dim and it will prompt me to restart in 4 different languages showing the power button icon. Is there anything I can do to help this problem? I have been having problems with a couple of other applications like Quark unexpectedly quitting also. It is getting aggravating. Help!!!
skapp - Oct 17, 2005 - 10:19 am
You are experiencing kernel panics. Visit The XLab FAQs and read the FAQ on troubleshooting kernel panics.
Open your Console app (Utilities folder), click on the Logs icon in the toolbar and locate the panic.log file in the sidebar listing. Post a copy of the most recent panic log entry.
If you did not repair your hard drive or permissions prior to installing Tiger, then I recommend you do that:
Boot from your OS X Installer. Be sure to use the installer for the version of OS X you have installed. After the installer loads select Disk Utility from the Installer menu (or Utilities menu if using Tiger.) After DU loads select your OS X volume from the list on the left, click on the First Aid tab, then click on the Repair Disk button. If DU reports any errors that have been fixed, then re-run Repair Disk until no errors are reported. If no errors are reported click on the Repair Permissions button. Wait until the operation completes, then quit DU and return to the installer. Now shutdown the computer for a couple of minutes and then restart normally.
If DU reports errors it cannot fix, then you will need Disk Warrior (3.0.3 for Tiger) and/or TechTool Pro (4.0.5 for Tiger) to repair the drive. If you don't have either of them or if neither of them can fix the drive, then you will need to reformat the drive and reinstall OS X.
Open your Console app (Utilities folder), click on the Logs icon in the toolbar and locate the panic.log file in the sidebar listing. Post a copy of the most recent panic log entry.
If you did not repair your hard drive or permissions prior to installing Tiger, then I recommend you do that:
Boot from your OS X Installer. Be sure to use the installer for the version of OS X you have installed. After the installer loads select Disk Utility from the Installer menu (or Utilities menu if using Tiger.) After DU loads select your OS X volume from the list on the left, click on the First Aid tab, then click on the Repair Disk button. If DU reports any errors that have been fixed, then re-run Repair Disk until no errors are reported. If no errors are reported click on the Repair Permissions button. Wait until the operation completes, then quit DU and return to the installer. Now shutdown the computer for a couple of minutes and then restart normally.
If DU reports errors it cannot fix, then you will need Disk Warrior (3.0.3 for Tiger) and/or TechTool Pro (4.0.5 for Tiger) to repair the drive. If you don't have either of them or if neither of them can fix the drive, then you will need to reformat the drive and reinstall OS X.
dglose - Oct 20, 2005 - 11:08 am
Hey Stephen K.
Thanks for responding so fast. The tech here noticed I only had 512M of RAM, so we ordered 2 more 512s and put them in yesterday. I have been quitting even more now. I booted from my installer CD and ran my Disk Utility and it had in there that I had Invalid leaf record count (It should be 2 instead of 276). I tried several times to fix, but was unsuccessful. We are looking into the Disk Warrior or the TechTool Pro to repair, because we do not have either of these. We don't really want to reinstall. We did this a couple a weeks ago, my computer was quitting alot so we updated to Tiger. Then it got worse so we wiped out the computer and did a total reinstall, and we've been having problems since. Any suggestions would be great.
Thanks for you Help!!!
Thanks for responding so fast. The tech here noticed I only had 512M of RAM, so we ordered 2 more 512s and put them in yesterday. I have been quitting even more now. I booted from my installer CD and ran my Disk Utility and it had in there that I had Invalid leaf record count (It should be 2 instead of 276). I tried several times to fix, but was unsuccessful. We are looking into the Disk Warrior or the TechTool Pro to repair, because we do not have either of these. We don't really want to reinstall. We did this a couple a weeks ago, my computer was quitting alot so we updated to Tiger. Then it got worse so we wiped out the computer and did a total reinstall, and we've been having problems since. Any suggestions would be great.
Thanks for you Help!!!
skapp - Oct 20, 2005 - 11:16 am
Disk Warrior may be able to fix the invalid leaf record count, but it's a pretty nasty problem and DW may not be successful. You should be prepared for having to reformat and reinstall.
Kernel panics are most often caused by faulty hardware, bad RAM, and incompatible third-party drivers. The most frequent hardware problem is the hard drive. Using Disk Utility or other software to repair the hard drive is about all you can do unless you also have some third-party software installed and running that is incompatible with Tiger. Otherwise, I would suspect bad RAM. Replacing the existing RAM is really the only sure test.
Kernel panics are most often caused by faulty hardware, bad RAM, and incompatible third-party drivers. The most frequent hardware problem is the hard drive. Using Disk Utility or other software to repair the hard drive is about all you can do unless you also have some third-party software installed and running that is incompatible with Tiger. Otherwise, I would suspect bad RAM. Replacing the existing RAM is really the only sure test.
dglose - Oct 20, 2005 - 11:40 am
Yesterday when my tech guy put the new RAM in, it quit right after that, so we took the old RAM out and now am running off the 2 new 512s
skapp - Oct 20, 2005 - 12:27 pm
So, does that mean the problem has been resolved?
dglose - Oct 20, 2005 - 12:37 pm
Thu oct 20 12:24:51 2005
unresolved kernel trap(cpu 1): 0x300 - data access dar=0x0000000000000000 pc=0x000000000001e97c
latest crash info for cpu 1:
exception state (sv=0x377f8c80)
pc=0x0001e97c; msr=0x00009030; dar=0x00000000; dsisr=0x40000000; lr=0x0001faac; r1=0x21d1bc80; xcp=0x0000000c (0x300 - data access)
backtrace:
0x00278bf4 0x0001ff34 0x0002426c 0x000496e8 0x000291c0 0x000233ac
0x000abe2c 0x00000000
proceeding back via exception chain:
exception state (sv=0x377f8c80)
previously dumped as "latest" state. skipping...
exception state (sv=0x48a98a00)
pc=0x9000a738; msr=0x0000d030; dar=0x2be12040; dsisr=0x40000000; lr=0x9000a67c; r1=0xbffff580; xcp=0x00000030 (0xc00 - system call)
kernel version:
darwin kernel version 8.2.0: fri jun 24 17:46:54 pdt 2005; root:xnu-792.2.4.obj~3/release_ppc
panic(cpu 1 caller 0xffff0003): 0x300 - data access
latest stack backtrace for cpu 1:
backtrace:
0x00095544 0x00095a5c 0x0002683c 0x000a819c 0x000abb00
proceeding back via exception chain:
exception state (sv=0x377f8c80)
pc=0x0001e97c; msr=0x00009030; dar=0x00000000; dsisr=0x40000000; lr=0x0001faac; r1=0x21d1bc80; xcp=0x0000000c (0x300 - data access)
backtrace:
0x00278bf4 0x0001ff34 0x0002426c 0x000496e8 0x000291c0 0x000233ac
0x000abe2c 0x00000000
exception state (sv=0x48a98a00)
pc=0x9000a738; msr=0x0000d030; dar=0x2be12040; dsisr=0x40000000; lr=0x9000a67c; r1=0xbffff580; xcp=0x00000030 (0xc00 - system call)
kernel version:
darwin kernel version 8.2.0: fri jun 24 17:46:54 pdt 2005; root:xnu-792.2.4.obj~3/release_ppc
*********
unresolved kernel trap(cpu 1): 0x300 - data access dar=0x0000000000000000 pc=0x000000000001e97c
latest crash info for cpu 1:
exception state (sv=0x377f8c80)
pc=0x0001e97c; msr=0x00009030; dar=0x00000000; dsisr=0x40000000; lr=0x0001faac; r1=0x21d1bc80; xcp=0x0000000c (0x300 - data access)
backtrace:
0x00278bf4 0x0001ff34 0x0002426c 0x000496e8 0x000291c0 0x000233ac
0x000abe2c 0x00000000
proceeding back via exception chain:
exception state (sv=0x377f8c80)
previously dumped as "latest" state. skipping...
exception state (sv=0x48a98a00)
pc=0x9000a738; msr=0x0000d030; dar=0x2be12040; dsisr=0x40000000; lr=0x9000a67c; r1=0xbffff580; xcp=0x00000030 (0xc00 - system call)
kernel version:
darwin kernel version 8.2.0: fri jun 24 17:46:54 pdt 2005; root:xnu-792.2.4.obj~3/release_ppc
panic(cpu 1 caller 0xffff0003): 0x300 - data access
latest stack backtrace for cpu 1:
backtrace:
0x00095544 0x00095a5c 0x0002683c 0x000a819c 0x000abb00
proceeding back via exception chain:
exception state (sv=0x377f8c80)
pc=0x0001e97c; msr=0x00009030; dar=0x00000000; dsisr=0x40000000; lr=0x0001faac; r1=0x21d1bc80; xcp=0x0000000c (0x300 - data access)
backtrace:
0x00278bf4 0x0001ff34 0x0002426c 0x000496e8 0x000291c0 0x000233ac
0x000abe2c 0x00000000
exception state (sv=0x48a98a00)
pc=0x9000a738; msr=0x0000d030; dar=0x2be12040; dsisr=0x40000000; lr=0x9000a67c; r1=0xbffff580; xcp=0x00000030 (0xc00 - system call)
kernel version:
darwin kernel version 8.2.0: fri jun 24 17:46:54 pdt 2005; root:xnu-792.2.4.obj~3/release_ppc
*********
skapp - Oct 20, 2005 - 4:37 pm
Not sure what I'm looking at. The first entry has today's, but not within the panic log entry, so I'm not sure if the panic log entry is current. The second entry is dated in June, so it's not current or useful.
Neither entry, however, provides any distinct clue as to cause, unfortunately. Apparently no drivers are involved because there is no mention of any in the log entry. That would point more to a hardware-based cause such as bad RAM, hard drive, etc. The panic was "caused" by a data access error, and such errors occur in memory.
Neither entry, however, provides any distinct clue as to cause, unfortunately. Apparently no drivers are involved because there is no mention of any in the log entry. That would point more to a hardware-based cause such as bad RAM, hard drive, etc. The panic was "caused" by a data access error, and such errors occur in memory.
dglose - Oct 21, 2005 - 5:33 pm
Hey Stephen,
Bad News, my computer totally crashed yesterday. When I restarted, the screen had the power button icon and the panic (cpu 0 caller OX002DD948): Unable to find driver for this platform: "PowerMac 3,6", .... message on the screen and doesn't boot up, unless from the installer CD, which I ran the Disk Untility from and still gives me the Invalid leaf message, but I can not go anywhere else from here.
Bad News, my computer totally crashed yesterday. When I restarted, the screen had the power button icon and the panic (cpu 0 caller OX002DD948): Unable to find driver for this platform: "PowerMac 3,6", .... message on the screen and doesn't boot up, unless from the installer CD, which I ran the Disk Untility from and still gives me the Invalid leaf message, but I can not go anywhere else from here.
skapp - Oct 22, 2005 - 1:13 am
In that case I'm afraid you will need to boot from your Tiger DVD and reformat the hard drive then reinstall OS X. If you continue to have these problems even after a reformat and reinstall, then you may have other hardware problems, in which case you will need to have the computer checked out at an Apple service center.
dglose - Oct 24, 2005 - 6:57 am
Do you know if there is a problem with Tiger running on a G4? My tech guy suggested getting a G5
skapp - Oct 24, 2005 - 10:12 am
There is no problem running Tiger on G4s (and many G3s). I run Tiger on G4 machines. I have two TiPBs and two Quicksilvers. Your MDD is just a generation beyond my QS. Tiger runs just fine. Maybe your tech friend is just trying to sell you a computer.
dglose - Oct 27, 2005 - 4:16 pm
Steven K.
I have done a complete erase and install on my entire system yesterday. I am still getting the Mac OS quitting unexpectedly(3times today) My Photoshop quit unexpectedly and Safari also today. I have ran my Apple Hardware Test and shows no problem at all. I have new RAM installed. I have ran the Disk Utility from the CD and no problems there. I verified my permissions and I get the same ones as before I did my install( see below I have attached them). I have ran my disk warrior and there were alot of things wrong due to Creative Suite 2, I'm not real sure on how to read the Disk Warrior report though. I also notice when I load my printers that I use in the Print Center, it will lock my computer up everytime. Do you have any suggestion? You've been a big help so much, I've learned alot from you!!!!
These are my Permissions I got.
Verify permissions for “Macintosh HD”
Determining correct file permissions.
We are using special permissions for the file or directory ./Library/Widgets. New permissions are 16877
We are using special permissions for the file or directory ./usr/lib/php/build/acinclude.m4. New permissions are 33060
Permissions verification complete
The privileges have been verified or repaired on the selected volume
I have done a complete erase and install on my entire system yesterday. I am still getting the Mac OS quitting unexpectedly(3times today) My Photoshop quit unexpectedly and Safari also today. I have ran my Apple Hardware Test and shows no problem at all. I have new RAM installed. I have ran the Disk Utility from the CD and no problems there. I verified my permissions and I get the same ones as before I did my install( see below I have attached them). I have ran my disk warrior and there were alot of things wrong due to Creative Suite 2, I'm not real sure on how to read the Disk Warrior report though. I also notice when I load my printers that I use in the Print Center, it will lock my computer up everytime. Do you have any suggestion? You've been a big help so much, I've learned alot from you!!!!
These are my Permissions I got.
Verify permissions for “Macintosh HD”
Determining correct file permissions.
We are using special permissions for the file or directory ./Library/Widgets. New permissions are 16877
We are using special permissions for the file or directory ./usr/lib/php/build/acinclude.m4. New permissions are 33060
Permissions verification complete
The privileges have been verified or repaired on the selected volume
skapp - Oct 27, 2005 - 4:48 pm
Your permissions are fine. The report is only an information report indicating that since the last version of Disk Utility/OS X, certain items' permissions have been changed. You can ignore the messages.
As for crashes and freezes on an erased hard drive with a fresh system install, that usually points to some hardware problem. Either an attached peripheral or a driver for the peripheral, a third-party PCI card that's not compatible, or something with the computer hardware itself - bad RAM, bad hard drive, or bad motherboard.
If you have third-party peripherals or PCI cards, try removing them. If you've installed any third-party hardware drivers (mouse, USB, etc.) then remove them. If you've installed Tiger, try booting into safe mode by restarting the computer, and when you hear the chime press and hold the SHIFT key down until the moment the little rotating gear appears below the large gray Apple logo on the startup screen. As the login progresses you will get a login window and should see the words Safe Mode.
Safe mode automatically turns off third-party startupitems, contextual menu items, login items, and extensions. If any of these are causing problems, they can not cause a problem in safe mode. So, if the problem ceases in safe mode you have some idea of where to start looking.
However, the above would not apply on a virgin installed system because at that point you would not have any third-party items installed. In this case I would still guess a hardware problem. My first choice would be bad RAM.
As for crashes and freezes on an erased hard drive with a fresh system install, that usually points to some hardware problem. Either an attached peripheral or a driver for the peripheral, a third-party PCI card that's not compatible, or something with the computer hardware itself - bad RAM, bad hard drive, or bad motherboard.
If you have third-party peripherals or PCI cards, try removing them. If you've installed any third-party hardware drivers (mouse, USB, etc.) then remove them. If you've installed Tiger, try booting into safe mode by restarting the computer, and when you hear the chime press and hold the SHIFT key down until the moment the little rotating gear appears below the large gray Apple logo on the startup screen. As the login progresses you will get a login window and should see the words Safe Mode.
Safe mode automatically turns off third-party startupitems, contextual menu items, login items, and extensions. If any of these are causing problems, they can not cause a problem in safe mode. So, if the problem ceases in safe mode you have some idea of where to start looking.
However, the above would not apply on a virgin installed system because at that point you would not have any third-party items installed. In this case I would still guess a hardware problem. My first choice would be bad RAM.
dglose - Oct 28, 2005 - 7:05 am
Steven -
I forwarded what you had to say to Tech Guy, Jeff. He asked me to post this and let us know what you think.
Dawn
Steven K,
I have been working with Dawn in an attempt to get her Mac performing as it should for the past couple of weeks. I have some experience with the Mac however my expertise dates back to OS 9. I'm nowadays more of a Windows guy and the troubleshooting methods I use for Win machines shouldn’t differ that much from the Macintosh. As you state in this and past posts your initial thoughts are hardware issues. I agree that this repeatable problem still existing after multiple reinstalls and now a fresh reload would point me in that direction as well. However in the PC world, If I were upgrading a Windows 98 machine to Windows XP, after the install is complete I would then pursue the cumbersome task of updating all of my drivers for video, audio etc to be compatible with the new OS. Maybe that example is closer to upgrading OS 9 to X but still, even from Win200 to XP I would still want to check for updated drivers to ensure proper operation. Perhaps even update the BIOS.
This Mac is a G4 that ran Jaguar smoothly. On 512 meg of ram. The reason for the initial upgrade to Tiger was to use added functionality of some software that only Tiger allowed. After upgrading we quickly found out that among the constant hang ups and freezes the Netware client that we needed to access our file storage was not compatible with Tiger and we decided to wipe out the install and reload Jaguar.
After running smoothly for a short period of time back on the old OS the good people at Prosoft came out with a Tiger friendly version of the NetWare client and we took this opportunity to try again. Dawn is an intelligent user however since she did the upgrade last time and there were problems, just to make sure there was no confusion I performed the upgrade this time and fully loaded the Mac using all of my skills as a computer genius. Less than a week went by and we experienced the exact same issues from the first upgrade minus the NetWare access and this is about the time that the first post was put on this board.
Immediately we upgraded the RAM to 1.5 Gb and have troubleshot the network connection since the problems are repeatable while trying to browse for network printers and various other network related things. Quark Xpress the desktop publishing application she uses crashes intermittently and we blame that on Quark because everyone blames Quark. Just recently her other desktop applications are crashing and it pointed to more of an issue than network communications. As a result we thought “of course!” we have been upgrading instead of reinstalling with a formatted drive. I never do that in Windows and it was clear that was what needed to happen here. Dawn drove the install this time, fully reformatting and reloading everything from only the Tiger OS CD. Yet here we are today with all the same problems from the past upgrades.
That’s the complete history as I know it and while I went around my elbow to get to my thumb here are my questions. Is the Mac OS so cleanly written and are the parts manufacturers so in sync that their hardware firmware and software drivers never need updating, even when jumping from the G4 designed for jaguar to the G4 pumped up on Tiger. I cant believe that the software that powers the hardware that was built 2-3 years ago is still optimum for a newer OS.
Lastly, I grew up on a Mac and do defend them from time to time because of some of the superior concepts. However if Macs are a “quality” product then where are the resources for troubleshooting that I see for the Windows/Linux world. It seems the most popular method of troubleshooting OSX is reinstall. I think I can speak for Dawn when I say we are sick of that. We may have to “punt” on these issues and my guess is go back to the reliable Jaguar or scrap the unit and get a new one. But its hard to sell some people on the idea of “if the reload doesn’t work, buy a new machine”. I'd rather not let these issues beat us because its so repeatable that it has to be something tangible and not a ghost or possessed unit.
If you don’t mind, please post your comments on the updated drivers question as well as any resources that you recommend, besides this site of course, for a better understanding of how to troubleshoot these types of issues. I'm not much of a Unix guy but of it would help I guess I can start reading.
Thanks
Jeff M
I forwarded what you had to say to Tech Guy, Jeff. He asked me to post this and let us know what you think.
Dawn
Steven K,
I have been working with Dawn in an attempt to get her Mac performing as it should for the past couple of weeks. I have some experience with the Mac however my expertise dates back to OS 9. I'm nowadays more of a Windows guy and the troubleshooting methods I use for Win machines shouldn’t differ that much from the Macintosh. As you state in this and past posts your initial thoughts are hardware issues. I agree that this repeatable problem still existing after multiple reinstalls and now a fresh reload would point me in that direction as well. However in the PC world, If I were upgrading a Windows 98 machine to Windows XP, after the install is complete I would then pursue the cumbersome task of updating all of my drivers for video, audio etc to be compatible with the new OS. Maybe that example is closer to upgrading OS 9 to X but still, even from Win200 to XP I would still want to check for updated drivers to ensure proper operation. Perhaps even update the BIOS.
This Mac is a G4 that ran Jaguar smoothly. On 512 meg of ram. The reason for the initial upgrade to Tiger was to use added functionality of some software that only Tiger allowed. After upgrading we quickly found out that among the constant hang ups and freezes the Netware client that we needed to access our file storage was not compatible with Tiger and we decided to wipe out the install and reload Jaguar.
After running smoothly for a short period of time back on the old OS the good people at Prosoft came out with a Tiger friendly version of the NetWare client and we took this opportunity to try again. Dawn is an intelligent user however since she did the upgrade last time and there were problems, just to make sure there was no confusion I performed the upgrade this time and fully loaded the Mac using all of my skills as a computer genius. Less than a week went by and we experienced the exact same issues from the first upgrade minus the NetWare access and this is about the time that the first post was put on this board.
Immediately we upgraded the RAM to 1.5 Gb and have troubleshot the network connection since the problems are repeatable while trying to browse for network printers and various other network related things. Quark Xpress the desktop publishing application she uses crashes intermittently and we blame that on Quark because everyone blames Quark. Just recently her other desktop applications are crashing and it pointed to more of an issue than network communications. As a result we thought “of course!” we have been upgrading instead of reinstalling with a formatted drive. I never do that in Windows and it was clear that was what needed to happen here. Dawn drove the install this time, fully reformatting and reloading everything from only the Tiger OS CD. Yet here we are today with all the same problems from the past upgrades.
That’s the complete history as I know it and while I went around my elbow to get to my thumb here are my questions. Is the Mac OS so cleanly written and are the parts manufacturers so in sync that their hardware firmware and software drivers never need updating, even when jumping from the G4 designed for jaguar to the G4 pumped up on Tiger. I cant believe that the software that powers the hardware that was built 2-3 years ago is still optimum for a newer OS.
Lastly, I grew up on a Mac and do defend them from time to time because of some of the superior concepts. However if Macs are a “quality” product then where are the resources for troubleshooting that I see for the Windows/Linux world. It seems the most popular method of troubleshooting OSX is reinstall. I think I can speak for Dawn when I say we are sick of that. We may have to “punt” on these issues and my guess is go back to the reliable Jaguar or scrap the unit and get a new one. But its hard to sell some people on the idea of “if the reload doesn’t work, buy a new machine”. I'd rather not let these issues beat us because its so repeatable that it has to be something tangible and not a ghost or possessed unit.
If you don’t mind, please post your comments on the updated drivers question as well as any resources that you recommend, besides this site of course, for a better understanding of how to troubleshoot these types of issues. I'm not much of a Unix guy but of it would help I guess I can start reading.
Thanks
Jeff M
skapp - Oct 28, 2005 - 12:24 pm
Dawn and Jeff,
Thanks for the long history. As you already have ascertained there should be no particular reason why one should have a problem on that computer model with Jaguar, Panther, or Tiger. That said, there are potentials for problems with incompatible software versions, such as the Netware problem you described as well as possibly an incompatible version of Quark. I believe you need Quark 6.5 for Panther and Tiger, but I'm not a Quark user, so don't take my word for that.
The other "ifs" include the additional RAM that's been installed, the hard drive, and the motherboard. Bad RAM (not up to OS X requirements) is the most frequent cause of hardware-based problems with OS X. Corrupted hard drives are the second most frequent hardware problem. There is no definitive software test for RAM. The "best" test is to remove all RAM modules except the originally installed ones. Run the OS long enough to see if panics or freezes recur. If they don't, then add one RAM module at a time and re-test. When problems recur the last RAM module installed is bad.
The hard drive is another matter. For severe hard drive problems or unsolvable hard drive problems the standard fix is to reformat the drive. I use an extended format procedure as a precaution:
1a (If this is the startup drive.) Boot from your OS X Installer Disk. After the installer loads select Disk Utility from the Installer menu (Utilities menu if using Tiger.) Be sure to use the installer disk for the version of OS X you intend to install.
1b (If this is a non-startup volume or external drive.) Open Disk Utility in the Utilities folder of your Applications folder.
2. After DU loads select your hard drive (this is the entry with the mfgr.'s ID and size) from the left side list. Click on the Partition tab in the DU main window.
3. Set the number of partitions from the dropdown menu (use 1 partition unless you wish to make more.) Set the format type to Mac OS Extended (Journaled, if supported.) Click on the Partition button and wait until the volume(s) mount on the Desktop.
4. Select the volume you just created (this is the sub-entry under the drive entry) from the left side list. Click on the Erase tab in the DU main window.
5. Set the format type to Mac OS Extended (Journaled, if supported.) Click on the Options button, check the button for Zero Data and click on OK to return to the Erase window.
6. Click on the Erase button. The format process will take 30 minutes to an hour or more depending upon the drive size.
Disk Utility will also report the SMART status of an internal hard drive. When you open DU simply select the main drive entry (the one with the mfgr.'s ID and size), then look at the DU status bar at the bottom of the DU window. The SMART status is reported there. If it doesn't say "Verified" then the drive is bad or failing.
A simple answer is "Yes." OS X contains everything that is required to fully support all Mac models that Apple designates as supported. Most third-party manufacturers eventually get their products updated for compatibility, but some take longer than others. For some hardware OS X already contains drivers - all OEM video cards and all NVidia video cards, hard drives, Firewire and USB devices, Ethernet, sound, etc. All drivers are installed with OS X, but the operating system only loads those needed for the extant hardware.
I think I would say that OS X provides the most optimum environment it can for the existing hardware, however, older hardware may not be optimum for running OS X. OS X requires a lot of CPU and video horsepower not to mention gobs of RAM and hard drive space.
There are tons of troubleshooting resources for Macs and OS X. Just visit the Apple OS X support site. In addition to an extensive Knowledge Base and numerous helpful FAQs and web pages, there are the Apple forums populated by dozens of Mac expert volunteers. And, reinstalling OS X is not only NOT the most popular method of troubleshooting, it is the last thing recommended when all other troubleshooting has failed or when a hard drive has been totally hosed - exactly what you would do on a Windows box when it's hard drive goes south.
It's probably true that most users simply reformat and reinstall because they don't know what else to do. That's usually because many users prefer ignorance to taking time to learn if there may be another way. I'm often surprised by the number of users who show up on the help forums with problems on a machine that's only days old, but they never seem to consider thay have a warranty and can take the computer to a service center. Instead, they muck around, make things worse, then get in a tizzy and blame Apple for crappy software or hardware. Oftentimes a Mac's worst enemy is its owner!
It's entirely possible that the need to return to Jaguar could be due to third-party software incompatibilities and/or third-party hardware or third-party hardware drivers. The first step in the process is to strip the computer down to it's original state (including removing all non-original RAM). Remove any third-party hardware and use only the original keyboard and mouse. Now, in your situation I would also suggest getting back to scratch and reformatting the hard drive, then reinstall Tiger or Panther or Jaguar. Be sure everything is working properly with a virgin system. Then I would determine what third-party software you want to try first. Install it, and check the developer's website for any software updates. Be sure to update the software for whatever version of OS X you plan to keep installed. If you plan to upgrade from Jaguar to Tiger, then be sure the third-party software can be upgraded for Tiger compatibility.
If this MDD Mac is the first generation version (made between Aug 2002 and Jan 2003) then be sure you have also installed the firmware update required for it.
Take things a step at a time, but my guess is either the hard drive is hosed or some of the RAM installed is bad.
Every version of OS X includes all the drivers needed for all the hardware that Apple currently certifies is supported. This includes video cards, printers, hard drives, USB and Firewire devices, cameras, etc. The Apple OS X website has pages that list currently supported hardware.
For troubleshooting help I highly recommend using Apples support site. Just get to the support web page and click on Discussions in the navbar.
Use the Knowledge Base (it's searchable), the various help pages at the support website or the OS X site, dozens of FAQs and User Tips via the Apple Discussion Forums. I also highly recommend a visit to The XLab FAQs.
Amazon.com also has a number of books on OS X as well as several good ones on Unix and OS X.
I hope I've answered your questions.
Thanks for the long history. As you already have ascertained there should be no particular reason why one should have a problem on that computer model with Jaguar, Panther, or Tiger. That said, there are potentials for problems with incompatible software versions, such as the Netware problem you described as well as possibly an incompatible version of Quark. I believe you need Quark 6.5 for Panther and Tiger, but I'm not a Quark user, so don't take my word for that.
The other "ifs" include the additional RAM that's been installed, the hard drive, and the motherboard. Bad RAM (not up to OS X requirements) is the most frequent cause of hardware-based problems with OS X. Corrupted hard drives are the second most frequent hardware problem. There is no definitive software test for RAM. The "best" test is to remove all RAM modules except the originally installed ones. Run the OS long enough to see if panics or freezes recur. If they don't, then add one RAM module at a time and re-test. When problems recur the last RAM module installed is bad.
The hard drive is another matter. For severe hard drive problems or unsolvable hard drive problems the standard fix is to reformat the drive. I use an extended format procedure as a precaution:
1a (If this is the startup drive.) Boot from your OS X Installer Disk. After the installer loads select Disk Utility from the Installer menu (Utilities menu if using Tiger.) Be sure to use the installer disk for the version of OS X you intend to install.
1b (If this is a non-startup volume or external drive.) Open Disk Utility in the Utilities folder of your Applications folder.
2. After DU loads select your hard drive (this is the entry with the mfgr.'s ID and size) from the left side list. Click on the Partition tab in the DU main window.
3. Set the number of partitions from the dropdown menu (use 1 partition unless you wish to make more.) Set the format type to Mac OS Extended (Journaled, if supported.) Click on the Partition button and wait until the volume(s) mount on the Desktop.
4. Select the volume you just created (this is the sub-entry under the drive entry) from the left side list. Click on the Erase tab in the DU main window.
5. Set the format type to Mac OS Extended (Journaled, if supported.) Click on the Options button, check the button for Zero Data and click on OK to return to the Erase window.
6. Click on the Erase button. The format process will take 30 minutes to an hour or more depending upon the drive size.
Disk Utility will also report the SMART status of an internal hard drive. When you open DU simply select the main drive entry (the one with the mfgr.'s ID and size), then look at the DU status bar at the bottom of the DU window. The SMART status is reported there. If it doesn't say "Verified" then the drive is bad or failing.
That’s the complete history as I know it and while I went around my elbow to get to my thumb here are my questions. Is the Mac OS so cleanly written and are the parts manufacturers so in sync that their hardware firmware and software drivers never need updating, even when jumping from the G4 designed for jaguar to the G4 pumped up on Tiger. I cant believe that the software that powers the hardware that was built 2-3 years ago is still optimum for a newer OS.
A simple answer is "Yes." OS X contains everything that is required to fully support all Mac models that Apple designates as supported. Most third-party manufacturers eventually get their products updated for compatibility, but some take longer than others. For some hardware OS X already contains drivers - all OEM video cards and all NVidia video cards, hard drives, Firewire and USB devices, Ethernet, sound, etc. All drivers are installed with OS X, but the operating system only loads those needed for the extant hardware.
I think I would say that OS X provides the most optimum environment it can for the existing hardware, however, older hardware may not be optimum for running OS X. OS X requires a lot of CPU and video horsepower not to mention gobs of RAM and hard drive space.
Lastly, I grew up on a Mac and do defend them from time to time because of some of the superior concepts. However if Macs are a “quality” product then where are the resources for troubleshooting that I see for the Windows/Linux world. It seems the most popular method of troubleshooting OSX is reinstall.
There are tons of troubleshooting resources for Macs and OS X. Just visit the Apple OS X support site. In addition to an extensive Knowledge Base and numerous helpful FAQs and web pages, there are the Apple forums populated by dozens of Mac expert volunteers. And, reinstalling OS X is not only NOT the most popular method of troubleshooting, it is the last thing recommended when all other troubleshooting has failed or when a hard drive has been totally hosed - exactly what you would do on a Windows box when it's hard drive goes south.
It's probably true that most users simply reformat and reinstall because they don't know what else to do. That's usually because many users prefer ignorance to taking time to learn if there may be another way. I'm often surprised by the number of users who show up on the help forums with problems on a machine that's only days old, but they never seem to consider thay have a warranty and can take the computer to a service center. Instead, they muck around, make things worse, then get in a tizzy and blame Apple for crappy software or hardware. Oftentimes a Mac's worst enemy is its owner!
I think I can speak for Dawn when I say we are sick of that. We may have to “punt” on these issues and my guess is go back to the reliable Jaguar or scrap the unit and get a new one. But its hard to sell some people on the idea of “if the reload doesn’t work, buy a new machine”. I'd rather not let these issues beat us because its so repeatable that it has to be something tangible and not a ghost or possessed unit.
It's entirely possible that the need to return to Jaguar could be due to third-party software incompatibilities and/or third-party hardware or third-party hardware drivers. The first step in the process is to strip the computer down to it's original state (including removing all non-original RAM). Remove any third-party hardware and use only the original keyboard and mouse. Now, in your situation I would also suggest getting back to scratch and reformatting the hard drive, then reinstall Tiger or Panther or Jaguar. Be sure everything is working properly with a virgin system. Then I would determine what third-party software you want to try first. Install it, and check the developer's website for any software updates. Be sure to update the software for whatever version of OS X you plan to keep installed. If you plan to upgrade from Jaguar to Tiger, then be sure the third-party software can be upgraded for Tiger compatibility.
If this MDD Mac is the first generation version (made between Aug 2002 and Jan 2003) then be sure you have also installed the firmware update required for it.
Take things a step at a time, but my guess is either the hard drive is hosed or some of the RAM installed is bad.
If you don’t mind, please post your comments on the updated drivers question as well as any resources that you recommend, besides this site of course, for a better understanding of how to troubleshoot these types of issues. I'm not much of a Unix guy but of it would help I guess I can start reading.
Every version of OS X includes all the drivers needed for all the hardware that Apple currently certifies is supported. This includes video cards, printers, hard drives, USB and Firewire devices, cameras, etc. The Apple OS X website has pages that list currently supported hardware.
For troubleshooting help I highly recommend using Apples support site. Just get to the support web page and click on Discussions in the navbar.
Use the Knowledge Base (it's searchable), the various help pages at the support website or the OS X site, dozens of FAQs and User Tips via the Apple Discussion Forums. I also highly recommend a visit to The XLab FAQs.
Amazon.com also has a number of books on OS X as well as several good ones on Unix and OS X.
I hope I've answered your questions.
dglose - Nov 1, 2005 - 6:48 am
Steven K,
Thanks for your detailed response. You have shed some light for me on a few items. I do believe we could narrow down the problem if we were to do as we figured and you suggest by reverting to the fresh install and adding things slowly, piece by piece until we see where the issue resides. However in corporate America time is money and I doubt our employer wants Dawn and I to spend any more time on this. The executive decision has been made and it looks like we will be cutting our losses and a new PC is in our future. Though it is apparent that we may never know the cause or solution to our problem, we do both appreciate the time an effort you put forth trying to assist the both of us.
Jeff M
Steven K,
I also would like to Thank You myself also. I've learned alot these past few weeks. I do want to let you know that I took some RAM out of my computer and the past 2 days have not had any problems running on the one I have in there, so it looks like I should have tried this a couple of weeks ago, maybe it would have saved us some time and money.
Dawn
Thanks for your detailed response. You have shed some light for me on a few items. I do believe we could narrow down the problem if we were to do as we figured and you suggest by reverting to the fresh install and adding things slowly, piece by piece until we see where the issue resides. However in corporate America time is money and I doubt our employer wants Dawn and I to spend any more time on this. The executive decision has been made and it looks like we will be cutting our losses and a new PC is in our future. Though it is apparent that we may never know the cause or solution to our problem, we do both appreciate the time an effort you put forth trying to assist the both of us.
Jeff M
Steven K,
I also would like to Thank You myself also. I've learned alot these past few weeks. I do want to let you know that I took some RAM out of my computer and the past 2 days have not had any problems running on the one I have in there, so it looks like I should have tried this a couple of weeks ago, maybe it would have saved us some time and money.
Dawn
skapp - Nov 1, 2005 - 9:28 am
Jeff and Dawn,
I'm sorry that we didn't find a definitive solution sooner. It appears that bad RAM may have been the culprit after all.
I am glad I was able to help. I will close out this problem. Best wishes to you both.
I'm sorry that we didn't find a definitive solution sooner. It appears that bad RAM may have been the culprit after all.
I am glad I was able to help. I will close out this problem. Best wishes to you both.
dglose - Nov 1, 2005 - 12:57 pm
Steven,
I hope you don't mind that I bother you again, but all morning I've been having these black outlined boxes appear everywhere I click, it doesn't matter if it is an icon on the desktop that I click on or in any application I'm working in they appear then disappear after I click on something else and reappear again. Do you know what I can do to fix this.
Dawn
I hope you don't mind that I bother you again, but all morning I've been having these black outlined boxes appear everywhere I click, it doesn't matter if it is an icon on the desktop that I click on or in any application I'm working in they appear then disappear after I click on something else and reappear again. Do you know what I can do to fix this.
Dawn
skapp - Nov 1, 2005 - 1:26 pm
You've got me. Not run into that before. I'm not even sure I quite visualize what it is. I assume you are not talking about the normal frame that appears around an icon when you select it?
Maybe it's an artifact of whatever has been causing problems with your system. I just don't know.
Maybe it's an artifact of whatever has been causing problems with your system. I just don't know.
dglose - Nov 2, 2005 - 3:05 pm
I figured out the boxes, it is in your System Preferences under Universal Access and turned off "Voice Over".
Anyway, I hope you don't mind me emailing you, but you've been so helpful. I had been running on the 1 RAM Stick since Friday and today we've unexpectedly quit 2 times, so it doesn't look like it is the RAM. My company here is going to get me a G5 and I should have it next week, but they are going to give me this one. I will try to go through some of the things you mentioned to Jeff, like loading things one by one and try and see what is causing the problem. Looks like this will be my evening project.
Thanks for your help!!!
Anyway, I hope you don't mind me emailing you, but you've been so helpful. I had been running on the 1 RAM Stick since Friday and today we've unexpectedly quit 2 times, so it doesn't look like it is the RAM. My company here is going to get me a G5 and I should have it next week, but they are going to give me this one. I will try to go through some of the things you mentioned to Jeff, like loading things one by one and try and see what is causing the problem. Looks like this will be my evening project.
Thanks for your help!!!
skapp - Nov 2, 2005 - 3:24 pm
My pleasure, Dawn.
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