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TICKET ARCHIVE -> Why is Raid 0 not used more?

RobinS - Mar 24, 2008 - 9:34 am

I realize that almost all Mac users are woefully ignorant of computer hardware technology - probably the main reason they opt for a Mac. But there are still thousands of dedicated Mac enthusiasts out there that seem to be informed, and yet I almost never hear of anyone using Raid 0 for increased performance. I wonder what is the point of spending untold thousands on a Mac Pro and NOT use Raid 0, especially when 36gb Western Digital Raptors (with the 16mb cache) are so cheap. 4 would be great for the OS and Applications and not cost much at all with a standard 7200 rpm large Sata drive for everything else and should give screaming performance. One could use the highly respected Raid 0 built into OS X. And is there any advantage of using Leopard with Raid 0?

RobinS - Mar 24, 2008 - 9:36 am

And is there any iMac that allows 2 hard drives (not on pokey firewire or USB of course) to be used with Raid 0? You'd think with all the room available behind the 24" screen, for example, they would think of that.

RobinS - Mar 24, 2008 - 9:38 am

All Apple needs to do is put in a eSata plug with replicator capabilities, then people could hook up 4 drives to even a Mini. Wishful thinking I guess.

Apple: Think Different. (As in 1-2 years behind the PC world hardware wise. Where is eSata, DDR3, etc)

DeltaMac - Mar 24, 2008 - 11:51 am

Generalizing about the Mac user again? You might do that about Apple, but don't try to throw Mac users into that pot! I do try not to get pulled down in every direction that technology swerves. Some turn out to be dead-ends, or one-way streets, eh?

If you want speed from your Mac Pro, why not go with the SAS option. There, you get up to 15K drives, and not the measly slow 10K from those old Raptors
Well, OK, it's more expensive.

Those users with a need for speed, such as hard drive recording or video editing, are likely those most interested in a RAID setup.

Wouldn't you want more than 2 drives for your RAID setup, so you can go with RAID 0+1? Sure, there's good performance with RAID-0, but there are no safety backups as with RAID 0+1. if your RAID set fails, you lose it all....

Not trying to give any reasoning for how Apple provides technology, but they do often provide leaps with new models, such as the Mac Pro available with processors that were not yet available to other manufacturers at the time of release.
I'm guessing that Apple is not going with eSATA, because they expect the technology to leap around some of the limitations of that technology. SAS, for example, can have up to 8m cables. eSATA is limited to 1m.

RobinS - Mar 24, 2008 - 7:52 pm

SAS is infinitely more expensive. My suggestion is marginally more expensive.

> Those users with a need for speed, such as hard drive recording or video editing, are likely those most interested in a RAID setup.

Anybody getting a Mac Pro is probably a likely candidate. But probably fewer than 5% run Raid 0.

> Wouldn't you want more than 2 drives for your RAID setup, so you can go with RAID 0+1? Sure, there's good performance with RAID-0, but there are no safety backups as with RAID 0+1. if your RAID set fails, you lose it all....

I thought Raid 0+1 was slower than Raid 0. And its way more expensive as you need twice as many drives. Also it doesn't protect against fire or theft like a proper backup does. With Raid 0, the more pairs you insert the faster it goes. Most people find 4 to be optimal I believe. At $27 (the selling price yesterday of one used I know of) x 4, its not expensive. That may be be an unusual price but it should be easy to find at $50 each. Newegg sells them at $100 each.

eSata is the most useful of all hard drive types as it makes available the low cost of Sata, the increased performance of Sata with the price of IDE. eSata could open the Mini, iMac and Mac Pro to Sata replication meaning people could run external, bootable or hot swappable immense storage arrays for a very low cost.

(Apple: Think Different. OR
Apple: Don't Think - Just Buy Blindly.)

Sorry about the negative attitude but no other company ignores technology like Apple. They seem to do it for the most bizarre reasons. Scrapping PS2 plugs and serial/printer port connections are some utterly brainless things they did. Obviously to sell their silly mice and printers. If a company can't compete without making themselves proprietary - They CAN'T Compete. When you see Windows users flooding into Apple stores to buy computers, you'll know they are competitive. Until then, we're all getting fleeced.

Apple just has its head in the sand once again. Sort of like the brilliance of connecting their built in webcam with USB when firewire is built in to the computer!

Anyway, if you can let someone else have a stab at this, that would be great. I'm just concerned about Raid 0 for now. I'm still a loyal Mac user (and Apple hardware hater of course!) and recommend it all the time to people. (Do ostriches eat Apples I wonder?)

DeltaMac - Mar 25, 2008 - 7:30 am

Robin! Glad you are back! It's hard to think with some of these folks that I respond to... You are a good challenge to me, and I consider most of your opinions to have merit - compared to some of the folks moving from Windows (I have seen a large surge in those numbers, contrary to your observation) who look back fondly at some of the Windows fumbling as something good
I choose to think of the Win printers, and Win modems (and other trivial stuff requiring Windows software to work) as proprietary.

"Anybody getting a Mac Pro is probably a likely candidate. But probably fewer than 5% run Raid 0."
Do you have some source for this "probably" number, or is it 'probably' just a guess? (re-direct here!) Your 'guess' that the concept of the all-in-one iMac is somehow flawed from the beginning - does not hold up in the real world, either. I use my service/repair experience over the last 15 years to offer that opinion - which also may be flawed due to small sample size.

I suspect it's been some time since you entered an Apple store? I don't know what your definition of 'flooding' is...

Apple has never used PS/2 connectors. They did use DIN-8 for serial or LocalTalk connections for about 10 years - dropped with the advent of USB. Din-8, of course, has been used by other manufacturers, and is still in use, but not by Apple.
The other connector, which is more like PS/2, is the ADB port. Worked good enough to be used by HP, Sun, NeXT, and a few others, according to Wikipedia. Again, not exactly proprietary to a single company.

Not sure what you mean by 'silly' mouse. Apple decided to integrate that pointing device at the outset of the Macintosh. They had that mouse-driven GUI (like it or not) well before PCs started tacking it on as an afterthought, or solely for special uses. Some users still prefer the older single-button mouse, so Apple still allows the current scroll-ball mouse to be set to that single-button format as an option.
I think if Apple had their way, we would have seen more SCSI printers. Wouldn't that have been interesting, in a twisted sort of way?
The built-in camera is connected to a USB bus, but doesn't use bandwidth unless you turn it on, and doesn't take up a USB port. I think Apple was looking ahead to using the same camera in other devices that don't have FireWire at all (iPhone, MacBook Air, other coming non-computer devices, etc)

thanks for your time...
- Dale

RobinS - Mar 25, 2008 - 8:11 am

Well I sell computer parts (both PC and Mac since they are largely interchangeable now) and so I talk to people every day from both sides of the fence who are redoing/upgrading their computers. I have yet to find a single Mac user using Raid 0. Not a one. I'm not in a large city but still substantial. Lots of Macs here. Not one using Raid 0.

As for PC users: I have never heard of a single one using a Mac for just Windows. Not one.

Well if Apple never used PS2 connectors they should have! When 95%+ of the world uses something you should too! They could have still used their ADB/whatever to sell their mediocre hardware. When I first looked for ergonomic keyboards (after suffering much pain with in a few days of using the very un-ergo Apple keyboard) I was dismayed to see that very few (especially the more unusual designs) used USB. So by Apple refusing to implement a very small change they cut out a huge hardware choice to their buyers. I eventually came upon a Microsoft 4000 which is wonderful and USB. I plug costs almost nothing. They should have used it.

When Apple insists on using ethernet or USB for printing its the same. Most of the "best for the money" printers in the world (well built lasers that have the lowest per page cost) do not use USB. I was just shopping for one and once again was dismayed to see this hardware choice cut out for me.

The mouse: it took years for Apple to wake up to the fact that more buttons = more programmable options for the user. Now they have a multi-button, programmable mouse. I think. I use a trackball - more ergonomic of course.

If you have firewire in the computer and firewire gives better performance, and you are installing the optics for a webcam, what possible logical reason would Apple have for using inferior USB? Especially as they discontinued the iSight cameras (notice what used ones are going for on Ebay??? $300+ sometimes.)

It really comes down to a small minded company doing silly things to sell a few more of their hardware items today without a thought to tomorrow. Its why they have such a small portion of the market. The OS is great. Its the lack of hardware choice that is shooting them in the foot. The fact there is nothing between a Mini and a Mac Pro (no thinking person buys an all in one computer!) is just a testament to their small minded, controlling thinking.

But once again I'm curious why, when the software based Raid 0 in OS X is supposed to be quite good and is free, and 4 x 36gb 16mb cache 10,000 rpm Western Digital Raptor hard drives are so inexpensive, people wouldn't go down this avenue of higher performance. I can only chalk it up to ignorance. One other problem might be that the hard drive positions in the Mac Pro are very poorly cooled (not the second one but the others are) and the 10k speed might overheat. Not to mention Apple has not surrounded the hard drives with any sound absorbtion material so the 10k rotating speed might be a tad hard on the ears. Once again eSata logic comes to the front. By having an external box (which they could sell!), it could be designed for sound absorbtion and cooling. But that would be too logical for Apple.

DeltaMac - Mar 25, 2008 - 1:42 pm

Ah, have you checked out the HP L7780 Office Jet? A small office ink jet (purportedly) with ink costs per page lower than most laser printers. I use one here, without USB or ethernet, even though both are included with the printer. I use it wirelessly, even to scan.... I've only used it a few months, but quite fast, and holds gobs of paper, like 1,000 of so sheets. Not small, and not a bargain basement model, either.

I would take umbrage at your remarks about 'no thinking person buys an all in one computer' if I thought you were serious. An all-in-one is not a failure waiting to happen - no more so than having all separates. I will admit, the all-in-one concept gives you less opportunity for modifications/upgrades, and if repairs are necessary, they would be more expensive. However, we take older Macs on trade-in for new Macs, and I see many iMacs that have never had service/repairs of any kind, other than the occasional software/memory upgrade.
And, despite your trepidations, Apple has done quite well with that concept, don't you agree?

RobinS - Mar 25, 2008 - 9:31 pm

Lasers have a huge advantage though: you can buy preowned toner. Cost per page plummets to less than a quarter of a penny a page. Beat that with any inkjet! I think most lasers come in at about 2 cents a page and inkjets are about 5 times that. So with buying the preowned toner, its about 1/8 the normal price of the laser at 2 cents/page. Pretty amazing. Plus printers like the HP II and others of that time were very well made apparently. I really know very little about printers - just starting.

Apple has done with the all in one principle because sadly, our modern society is too short of time to think properly before buying. I've come across several people that toss their iMacs because either the motherboard or monitor failed rendering the machine at Apple pricing mercy. If Apple had reasonable and fair costs for their parts it would be a non-issue. The last time I checked the motherboard for a Mini was over $400. That is just an insult to consumer common sense. Its more than the whole unit costs on Ebay.

Then the buyer buys into the whole warranty/Applecase nonsense. In reality, a computer has a few main parts. A few years down the road, when something fails, its a simple matter of replacing that one thing. By then, parts costs have fallen dramatically and most machines can be up and running for between $20-40 dollars. Take a 3 year old PC - no part in that box is worth more than $40 now! And many are less than $20. MB, CPU, ram, DVD, video card....all less than $40 used to replace.

So just because most of the public has a minor lobotomy before walking into an Apple store, Apple HAS done well. Thinking people have always analyzed the situation, broken things into their categories and made decisions. Slobs just lop things together and dive in with their eyes closed.

I sell to some of these idiots all day long and have been for years, and easily see the difference in buyers. Its sad really. We should learn from history. Sadly modern man seems to get more and more foolish with each generation. Knowledge increases, wisdom decreases. The computer marketplace is a good analogy of modern societies' problems.

So I guess we kind of drifted from Raid 0 eh? LOL!

DeltaMac - Mar 26, 2008 - 6:54 am

Wow, I didn't take you for someone who prints with junk paper!
I get very used to telling folks we support that recycled paper can be used for draft printing, but for true and consistent results, go with the real stuff!
Have you really found a brand of recycled that gives consistent printing of photo color? I've not seen one yet... We get a lot of graphics folks in our shop.

Anyhoo - Raid 0 did go another direction here, eh?
I agree with you in regard to logic board cost for the mini. eMacs are in that same category. I deal with a lot of schools, and most are successful in getting Apple to replace failed logic boards on eMacs.

We 'modernize' trade-in Macs, such as eMacs, by adding new dual-layer burners, larger hard drives, more memory, for a very small outlay on our part, the buyer has a very modern Mac for a reasonable cost to them.
I think some of those same idiots that you see, also come into our store! Glad we have Macs to sell to them! At least they can jump off the Windows treadmill, eh? I had an MCSE in yesterday who shared horror stories about Vista upgrades. (OK, MCSE doesn't necessarily equal brainy, and he's retired, so give him a break! Good friend of mine...)

RobinS - Mar 26, 2008 - 9:42 am

As I mentioned before, printing is a new area for me and my experience is very limited. As for paper, if it prints, it works for me. I just want low costs. I'm printing for friends mostly, not for business so the appearance is immaterial as long it has typical laser clarity. I'd probably use a dot matrix if I could. (And some ear protection of course.) I have found some printers more sensitive to jams with recycled paper. That can be a headache indeed. Trial and error I guess. And I don't need any color - yet. Maybe in a while. For that, I'd probably just keep a cheapo inkjet around to use once ever few months.

How are the schools successful in getting the boards replaced? Surely they are long past warranty?

If consumers would just slow down a bit and ponder for a fraction of the time they probably do before buying a car, their computer purchase would end up being so much more productive. Lack of time usually equals amount of TV watched but its different for everybody. I can't imagine having to look after a family as a single parent and make intelligent purchases...

I'm looking for info on the Mac Pro power supply. Like what voltages and amperages it sends to the motherboard. I Googled to no avail. Couldn't even source a single one used or from anyone except from Apple ($300 new!). If I had the electrical info, I might be able to modify an existing power supply or use 2 if they are lower quality. In terms of building a Mac Pro, the motherboard, memory riser cards and power supply are the proprietary headaches it would seem. At least I think the memory risers are proprietary. You would probably know that for sure.... Well? At about $90 from Mac-Pro.com 2 of them (I think you have to use 2) are almost half the cost of the motherboard....yikes. The motherboard is about $480. That is doable if the memory risers and power supply could be sourced elsewhere. I guess I could use any Xeons? Or do they have to be particular as well? FB-Dimms have plummetted in cost in the last year (thank you God!) so 4 x 1gb's are doable.

Man, I'm cheap....lol.

DeltaMac - Mar 26, 2008 - 8:09 pm

The schools have contact with the educational part of Apple - a whole other side from the consumer side. They have access to their own level of AppleCare. A couple of districts that I work with have 4 year AppleCare programs - the consumers don't get that extra year at all. Apple appears to want to keep the school districts happy, so seem to approve a variety of repairs for equipment out of normal warranty.
Apple Education isn't what it was 10 or 15 years ago, but they still do offer good deals to large districts. One district around Kansas City got Apple to provide a few thousand MacBooks with built-in GPS - supposedly for theft recovery/improper use - so Macs can be found that are outside of the normal 'Mac' way.

Why would you want to reproduce a Mac Pro, along with each bit of special hardware that might be in the box?
I do know something about the power supply in the MacPro. It's a 980 watt unit, and has 4 12-wire system plugs, similar to a main power supply plug to a 'normal' motherboard, the big rectangular jobs, but 4 of them. One is called a 'control' plug, and then there's PS#1, PS#2, and PS#3. The $300 price from Apple is close to what I have to do.
I get the Apple service manual, and there's also no electrical info, not even a block diagram. That's not unusual for Apple's tech manuals. An Apple tech doesn't get to know all the details of the inner workings, but just to know how to replace the part. The manuals seem to be targeted more for use for warranty-type repairs. This sometimes wasn't the case with the PowerPC, as some of the PowerMac G5s actually had a lot of connector/voltage data provided, but the Intel systems don't have much now.
Have you ever had a look at the sites that support OSX on 86? such as this - http://www.insanelymac.com/

RobinS - Mar 27, 2008 - 10:42 am

>Why would you want to reproduce a Mac Pro, along with each bit of special hardware that might be in the box?

To save a pile of money. Its hard to find a used Mac Pro for less than about $1700. And usually that comes with 512mb ram sticks...not good for upgrading. I would think 1gb sticks are best for the money right now. I just misssed a mb for a Mac Pro for about $350 and memory risers for $60 a pair. As I don't like the Mac Pro case design, that will thankfully save me a bundle.

Interesting about the power supply....its the headache now. I guess the only answer is to get someone to measure the power supply outputs. Then use a model with good reserves. Or multiple power supplies. They're so cheap its not a bad option. A cheap one for constant things like fans and a better quality one for the motherboard and hard drives perhaps. I don't need "Sleep" so that's a bonus. Now that I think of it, the voltage requirements are probably the same as other Intel server motherboards.

Firewire/Lan/Audio is onboard, video is easy - lots of used Apple compatible cards around (perhaps some PC ones are compatible or could be flashed so not an issue), FB-Dimms are finally reasonable, DVD burners are dirt cheap, likewise for Sata hard drives. I think the Mac Pro motherboard has provisions for 6 Sata drives though only 4 of the plugs are really used? Once you use 4 x 10k Satas for Raid 0 you really need the other 2 for data and backup. Hot swap is not a priority for my backups right now. I'd rather go for the extra speed and have the backup on the Sata bus or get an eSata controller card perhaps.

Do you happen to know if the power plug for the Mac Pro motherboard is a normal looking 20 or 24 pin one? If it is.....perhaps it could take an ATX power supply!

Found an interesting page....where else but insanelymac...lol
http://www.insanelymac.com/lofiversi...77290-250.html

While EFI with the Hack route is tempting, those OSX86 guys (and gals) still have lots of problems with their setups. I'm kind of a hardware fiend - always experimenting with new stuff. I'm setting up a music area with a midi piano keyboard and really don't want to worry about hardware/driver glitches. IF it means spending a few hundred more, its more than worth it to have a legitimate system. You see, a year ago, the motherboards were never available and the cost of Xeons and FB-Dimms was throught the roof. That's all changed now... Meanwhile the used prices are still sky high. This seems to be the logical route. Plus when you buy a used system its usually got several things you won't use and you have to end up selling them off and replacing them. More hassle. I've got an Intel board (older Socket 775, 915 chipset) that runs 10.4.6 fine and quick but ethernet is not recognized. Then when I tried the JAS 10.4.8 video was strange - chess didn't work properly. Same with 10.4.11. 10.5 versions didn't even boot. I wasted a lot of time on that.... Its fine for experimentation if you already have a PC lying around that is compatible. Risky if the computer is an integral part of your life like it is with me.

I've been contemplating right brain, left brain thinking. Strange how the computer seems to initiate left brain (logical, less creative) thinking more than right brain thinking. If that could be more neutralized or brought over to the creative side more somehow it would be a great accomplishment. I always find my best ideas come out when I'm doodling with pencil and paper. Never on the computer. I've ever tried one of the electronic sketchers. That might be an interesting left/right brain marriage. There's also something grounding and comforting in reading your own handwriting. Maybe its tradition - don't know. I kind of doubt it though. I'd love to dispense with paper altogether but so far, if I did, I'd never have much creativity at all and life would get pretty dreary.

Its been great talking to you this time - hope I'm not boring you...

RobinS - Mar 27, 2008 - 10:46 am

" Meanwhile the used prices are still sky high" is referring to the used prices of complete Mac Pros.

Speech dictation (the new Macspeech) and other good programs like Dragon (only on the PC unfortunately) may help with right brain thinking perhaps.

RobinS - Mar 27, 2008 - 11:29 am

This is such a great thread! Here it is: the power supply from hell...
http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.p...ic=77290&st=60

And here's a work of stainless steel art
http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?showtopic=77569

One disturbing thing I just noticed is that Apple unfortunately chose to place the CPU's so close together, severely limiting heatsink selection. In the first link they are pointed upwards (Thermalrights I think). So the air movement from the fans is all wrong as it comes in from the side. Not good. Especially if you want overclocking possibilities later. Perhaps water cooling should be used. Sure takes up a lot less interior space.

Power info. But he's using a Gigabyte board...
http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.p...ic=77569&st=60

Looks like there's another board - this Front Panel Pinout thing. What a headache.

Two thirds down the page a post from Digital Performer has some power supply stuff
http://www.insanelymac.com/lofiversi...77290-250.html

I just thought of another option: buy a barebones Mac Pro used that is perhaps missing a few items. But has the integral mb/ps/memory risers/case parts. Then sell off the case to raise money (more than $300 used I think) and remount everything in my own (far superior) design. As long as I have the boards, I'm fine. No power supply headaches this way. Maybe there are other parts I can liquidate too to raise funds.

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